Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Sean)
japanese import? unknown wood? could it be.....spanish pine on a sherry brener guitar? i know he made those "spanish" classical guitars but a flamenco? if it s a sherry flamenco that guitar might be a collector's item.
shawn--cool beans for jaws. speaking of jaws, it is the anniversary of the jaws the movie and persently, out in the cape waters, 2 great white sharks are swimming around looking for lunch. so the big question is--what beach guitar to take? i say a chinese conde to whack the sharks or use as a flotation device just in case (the coast guard can spot conde/home depot orange from the sky.
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
To those who feel I've not payed well enough to show the nuance of tones of this guitar I can only say I am sorry. If I were to unleash my full metal flamenco technique on you, not only you, but a host of virtuosic guitarists including Ricardo, Jason, Grisha, Don D. and undead zombies of Mavis del Castor Oil and Sabicasdelaplata would come unhinged.
My real falsetas are all too powerful, subtle and technically demanding for me to even waste my time showing them to you. Furthermore artists such as Paco de Lucia would writhe in agony and have long dark nighs of the tormented soul when he realized could not figure out my falsetas by ear and would have to relent and take personal lessons from me to master my mysterious yet potent toque.
And so I cannot present my utmost playing to you because I have composed most of the toque in hypertonalities with infrapolated super partials. Super partials are extensions of false harmonics and only audible to the canine world.
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Back and Sides of ...yup.... Ron's preferred cheap frame and tone wood, Ramin.
Yay!...the good ol Ramin... If you get on a low ebb with money at least you can still eat.
Good post, Stephen!
It's all smoke and mirrors unless you actually HANDLE the damn thing IMO.
Everybody thinks there is a fantastic, great sounding, low action, soft, loud, easy- to-play guitar that is hiding away somewhere in the world.
It's a fantasy IMO.
Give a beginner violinist a great Strad and it will sound crap.
Give a great guitarist like Grisha a mediocre guitar and he'll squeeze the best out of it.
But at the end of the day, his guitar of choice, as with Paco, Tomatito, Gerardo etc.. ALL the great players...will always be from a sole maker in a workshop somewhere.
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
My guess was based on "saying a wood that wasnt mentioned yet" lol
Ive had a ****ty "burgos" guitar that felt like it was made of paper and it had a midrange that sounded like that but overall, it played like crap.
I must say that Iam a fan of the "video recording device" sound. Almost all homemade flamenco guitar videos on youtube have that sound and I like it a lot. To me it bypasses the unneeded sounds from a flamenco guitar and you have that snappy pure sound even with crappy guitars.
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to estebanana)
Well I can't say it really means anything to me but I will say that it didn't sound half bad so a guitar made with cheapass materials can actually sound good.
Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
This means you should not make any conclusions about the tonal quality of a guitar based on a ****ty recording, compressed on Youtube and played back through computer speakers. It is not reality.
Having said that, I am about to do some hopefully good quality recordings of two new builds for youtube recordings, it seems to work as a promotional tool.
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
The conclusion for me was that I didn't like the sound of the guitar. Others thought that it sounded pretty good, and I didn't, so who's wrong? No one... Everyone likes what they like and that's the long and short of it.
I was fooled completely, and that was partly because I never thought that any guitar like this one would have been worth the costs of repairs and I was banking on a high valued instrument. That's what made this so good and interesting. But again, that's just the way I see it. I also think that a loud guitar can be made from pretty much anything, but just because its a loud guitar don't mean its a good guitar. I chose cedar because it sounded like cedar to me...
It seems that in my experience that either a cedar top sounds good or bad with no in-between. It seems like spruce runs the gamut more. That's a hard statement to make though because few people have ever played more cedar flamencos than spruce. Its usually the other way around and perhaps I'm a victim of the lack of opportunity here.
I would talk the owner into chucking this one out and having you build him one... That's the other part of my conclusion...
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to keith)
quote:
ORIGINAL: keith
i believe the wood used for a garcia grade 3 is spanish pine. whether or not it is plywood is another story.
I thought Spanish Pine was just salesman's way of saying Red Cedar. That was certainly the case with Ramirez guitars with "Spanish Pine" top wood. I doubt true pine would make an acceptable top.
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
I figured from the context of several books that Spanish pine is a translation of Pinabete, and that is it an ambiguity of translation. It's an ambiguity that stems from a misappropriated cognate by associating "pina" of pinabete with Pine in English.
Posts: 230
Joined: Jul. 13 2003
From: West Des Moines, IA USA
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to jshelton5040)
I still have a "Spanish Pine" top that was purchased from Sherry Brenner some time in the early '70's. Grain you could use for a ruler, evenly spaced, and perfectly quarter-sawn - BUT, it's either the darkest cedar you'll ever see, or it's redwood! It's medium to dark brown. Norman
_____________________________
"The duende is God's orgasm." - Antonio Canales
"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." - Santos Hernandez (as translated by R. Brune)
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
My conclusion was pretty simple and one I learned from older guitarist friends in the past.
Plywood tops also season as they get older and at forty two years of age can sound not too bad. Maybe not complex or clear as solid wood, but the sound is there in a meat and potatoes kind of way.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to estebanana)
Estabanana is right and here is a bit more info on the subject of 'spanish pine" a wood that does not exist ... Spanish pine is a mis-characterization of the Spanish word “pino abeto”. The literal translation of the term is “pine fir”. But pino abeto is really Canadian Cedar. Because of the translation glitch, many Spanish guitar makers now try to clarify the top wood as “Pino abeto o cedro de Canadá”, that is pine fir or Canadian cedar.
The mis-translation of ”pino abeto” as pine fir caused a number of American guitar makers and guitar companies in the 1960s and 1970s (not just Jim Sherry) to call the top wood “Spanish Pine”. ole
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
My conclusion was pretty simple and one I learned from older guitarist friends in the past.
Plywood tops also season as they get older and at forty two years of age can sound not too bad. Maybe not complex or clear as solid wood, but the sound is there in a meat and potatoes kind of way.
I find old guitars intriguing. I have a friend who is a bit of a wheeler and dealer when it comes to guitars. Although being a guitarist himself, he doesn't really have the funds to deal in expensive guitars. Anyway, he started taking a few chances buying "only old" cheap guitars on ebay. Usually guitars that did not even list if they were ply, laminated or solid timbers. He just took a chance.
The funny thing is that nearly every guitar he picked was good. And some were outstanding. They were the sort of guitars that I'd see on ebay and think, that's going to be a piece of s***. Then my mate would come up to me and say, have a play on this guitar that i bought on ebay for $100. I'd play them and be shocked I learnt a lot about guitars from him doing that.
My first two guitars when i first started playing were cheap plywood guitars. I couldn't really play back then so i can't remember what they were really like. My dad never had spare money, so he never had an expensive flamenco guitar either.
Like all flamenco students I wanted a nice guitar. Even though i thought that i did, i didn't really know what a good guitar was. In Australia I found an old student conde for $240. After playing it a while, I sold it at a profit and used the money to get a luthier to make me one. It was a very nice guitar. Living in Australia i could only really compare it to other flamenco guitars that friends had or videos and recordings.
When i eventually went to spain, I went to every guitar maker i could find trying out and listening to the guitars. I had money saved up and i was ready to buy. I went from Madrid to Ubeda, to Linares, to Jaen, to Granada down to Malaga, then to Tolox, Rhonda to Cordoba and then Seville. After my first 6 months in Spain i had not yet found one that convinced me to part with the cash. Compared to the luthier made one that i already had, none really jumped out at me and gave me that i must have it feeling. I should have kept that guitar that i had at the time. The guy i sold it to sold it on recently and i had the chance to play it again. It is a great guitar. I didn't have the money to buy it back at the time. I know who has it though. Maybe one day i'll get it back.
Eventually i did buy some more expensive guitars. I made the choice based on how well i could play and what i knew at the time. And picked the guitars that for some reason just spoke to me.
What is interesting is that 10 years later, I now prefer to play my cheap and old guitar with laminated back and sides. It just never lets me down. It's easy to play. It does what i want it to every time without effort. It doesn't sound as pretty as my expensive ones but I love it anyway.
The response is fast and easy. Rasqeuados separate and respond easily at varying speeds of execution, as apposed to many guitars that only really respond well at one. You know that feeling of having to push it to the open sound? And having to play it that way every time?
Trebles that open up into that deep full sound when pushed tend to be slow to respond when played softly with relaxed technique. They may really open up and sing no matter how hard you push, but I notice that this can act as a hinderance requiring my technique to feel more tense. Especially when playing picado. The fast responding guitar does not need to be pushed to get the full sounding note. It says relax. If I get tense and force it, it gives out and tells me to relax again. Touch it lightly and it responds fast. The bases are also great and the guitar is balanced. I feel in control. It may be the best guitar i have owned.
Like you say, the sound is not as complex and clear as my solid timber guitars. But it has an abundance of what is important to me.
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
Estabanana is right and here is a bit more info on the subject of 'spanish pine" a wood that does not exist ... Spanish pine is a mis-characterization of the Spanish word “pino abeto”. The literal translation of the term is “pine fir”. But pino abeto is really Canadian Cedar. Because of the translation glitch, many Spanish guitar makers now try to clarify the top wood as “Pino abeto o cedro de Canadá”, that is pine fir or Canadian cedar.
The mis-translation of ”pino abeto” as pine fir caused a number of American guitar makers and guitar companies in the 1960s and 1970s (not just Jim Sherry) to call the top wood “Spanish Pine”. ole
Hmmmmmmmm.... Pino abeto means spruce amongst spanish guitarmakers, cabinetmakers and other woodworkers. As with all popular names it can be discussed wheater its correct or not.
RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to KMMI77)
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77 Then my mate would come up to me and say, have a play on this guitar that i bought on ebay for $100. I'd play them and be shocked I learnt a lot about guitars from him doing that.
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread