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I've been playing for about a month now (played other guitars for 15 years, doesn't seem to help my progress in flamenco for some reason) and the three finger, ascending-descending 5-note arpeggio has become a massive hurdle for me. I can do it reliably at 60 BPM going P-I-M-A-M-I to form a sextuplet with the thumb, which then rests on the string below. But any faster and I miss notes.
Are there any tips to improve the speed of this? I'm learning Solea falsetas and most of the lessons I've had involve it happening at exactly twice that speed (I should be able to fit two sextuplets inside one beat of 60BPM) but it seems almost impossible. Rasgueado and picado I find much easier.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to wiking)
quote:
I've been playing for about a month now (played other guitars for 15 years, doesn't seem to help my progress in flamenco for some reason)
Don't forget to search, there are many good threads about appeggio, a few below. (unfortunatley playing the guitar for fifteen years may be a hinderence to the right hand, not a help because you have to unlearn habits but don't let that put you off it's worth it!)
Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to wiking)
quote:
played other guitars for 15 years, doesn't seem to help my progress in flamenco for some reason
Be patient. Starting flamenco guitar after playing for any number of years is like starting a new instrument. You're going to start slow and gradually pick up speed, confidence, and power as you play more.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to wiking)
Yup, just do it. I was in the same boat a few years ago. Get the proper technique down and then do it. Over and over and over again. It WILL take you at least a year to get your arps up.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to athrane77)
My rasgueado is actually already quite good, as is my alzapua. Those are the two techniques I'm confident in at the moment. They came a lot easier than the arpeggio, and it's only now I'm realising how often arpeggio is needed in Solea. Haha.
I'll just keep at it and one day it'll click I guess.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to wiking)
I enjoyed 14 years of guitar playing before i received my first serious flamenco guitar lessons and had to forget/unlearn everything i learned before :-). We spend a full year on technique, hardly touched music and still it took me years before i had a trustable arpeggio to begin with. May i suggest to master 3 rounds a second first...... once you can do that 2 rounds a second is a piece of cake :-).
But seriously, i only became better after i slowed down..... slowed down a lot..... an incredible lot.
If you want to improve your arpeggio, study arpeggio, not falsetas. That basically is step 1 of my signature "the smaller the object of your focus , the bigger the result". You might end up studying individual moves/fingers and parts of moves/fingers (like i did) and hopefully with equal results.
_____________________________
The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to wiking)
I agree with everyone else and the big tip to speed up arpeggios is......DONT.
Really just don't, spend 95 percent of your time going as slow as you can and you will notice what is going wrong and you can then fix it.
If you cant speed it up then you don't know what is wrong and that means you are going too fast.
Believe it or not I start with the metronome as slow as I am comfortable with and then put it down down down. And then like magic I really start learning. Slow practice is like putting fuel in your car. And it is bad for the engine to try and accelerate on an empty tank.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
... spend 95 percent of your time going as slow as you can and you will notice what is going wrong and you can then fix it.
Right on.
However: This may not occure fully, but either only partially or over a long period of time. That is at least how it has been for me. The details I had posted above originally took me only decades to finally and actually become aware of. ( And of their individual relevance respectively occurance in dependence from other causal aspects.)
It doesn´t hurt to be informed about the order and relevance of items. It can make the difference between minutes and decades. To me ( who at first, many years ago, dismissed any systematics deliberately / sought solution in silly autodidactics) the accurate understanding and conveying of innert detail is the magic potion of the arts, and most useful item I can find on the way. Together with the intuition through inspiration, naturally.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to wiking)
I know exactly what you mean. I played guitar for a number of years with a pick, electrics, acoustic but never finger picking. I had tried but could never seem to master it. I decided that I wouldn't start any lessons until I could at least fundamentally do a simple arp. I worked for close to a year before I started lessons and it helped quite a bit. I would suggest like others have, go very slowly. as that's the best way to proceed. If you can master it slowly you will have little trouble speeding it up. Enjoy the learning process as much as the actual playing.
A technique that I have used and has helped with arps and tremolo is master one finger at a time. For instance against the metronome slowly on each click, play the following arp combination use any chord you like, I like using an E maj, p, plucks the 6th string followed by the i on 5th string: p,i,p,i,p,i then add p,i,m,p,i,m,p,i,m then add the next finger p,i,m,a etc... Maybe the first day you only work the p & i fingers and add the next one the following day. The key is to make is smooth and controlled before fast!
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to wiking)
Yes, I believe is slow practice while keeping everything very even. Velocity is what will be THE product which is REALLY what makes every technique sound great.
Who was it that said: "Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast"
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to wiking)
quote:
ORIGINAL: wiking
This specific technique is killing me.
I've been playing for about a month now (played other guitars for 15 years, doesn't seem to help my progress in flamenco for some reason) and the three finger, ascending-descending 5-note arpeggio has become a massive hurdle for me. I can do it reliably at 60 BPM going P-I-M-A-M-I to form a sextuplet with the thumb, which then rests on the string below. But any faster and I miss notes.
Are there any tips to improve the speed of this? I'm learning Solea falsetas and most of the lessons I've had involve it happening at exactly twice that speed (I should be able to fit two sextuplets inside one beat of 60BPM) but it seems almost impossible. Rasgueado and picado I find much easier.
unlike other advices I recommend to try it quite fast, but not the entire up and down pattern. Most players can roll a chord fast pima...so assuming you CAN do that very fast, what you want to do is focus your attention all on the NEXT note in the pattern....the one played by the m finger next in the sequence that occurs on the second string. So you do this very fast pima-m....and stop on that note and accent it. taka taka TA, taka taka TA, taka taka TA....fast as you can do it clean. You make a pattern where the chord you hold (lets say C chord) you practice that 5 note speed burst and change the notes on the 2nd string each time perhaps like this:
After lot of practice, you can put it in strict rhythm of 6 notes per beat, yet the last note is silent each time. Only after you achieve the tempo you want will you then add the index finger note back in to the sequence for a full pimami....
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to wiking)
Practicing slowly is, interestingly enough, not going to get you to where you want to be. Normally, yes, it is sound advice... but in the case of techniques like arpeggio, I believe that the specific way in which one's muscles tense up when going faster vs. slower is very different.
I agree with Ricardo's advice, and would also like to add that you need some degree of tension in your fingers -- right about in the middle of each finger -- in order to play arpeggios very quickly and very cleanly. I'm teaching a guy right now whose goal is to improve these techniques, and it's interesting to analyze his playing and my own and see where the specific differences lie. We've found that the tension I'm referring to is crucial. I guess tension is the wrong word... rigidity? Tough to explain without actually demonstrating it in person.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Bulerias2005)
I used to believe this, but am starting to think that you can actually play very fast with minimal tension (you know, like almost all teachers tell us, but we don't really believe them, because, well, it's just unnecessary and we don't like that dead feeling our hand, we think we should be _doing_ something). The key for me is to keep that hand almost asleep. The fingers come out when they need to. Control the fingers with your voice. ta ta ta ta, etc. When you're ready, they will obey. Three months or whatever OP said isn't enough to play well, obviously. And OP's rasgueados are not "good" at three months. It's a process, and you never really "arrive"--unless you're Grisha or something.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
I used to believe this, but am starting to think that you can actually play very fast with minimal tension (you know, like almost all teachers tell us, but we don't really believe them, because, well, it's just unnecessary and we don't like that dead feeling our hand, we think we should be _doing_ something). The key for me is to keep that hand almost asleep. The fingers come out when they need to. Control the fingers with your voice. ta ta ta ta, etc. When you're ready, they will obey. Three months or whatever OP said isn't enough to play well, obviously. And OP's rasgueados are not "good" at three months. It's a process, and you never really "arrive"--unless you're Grisha or something.
Oh, yeah, the tension I am describing is very minimal. Too much and one's hands are way too stiff to do anything. It's a very delicate balance, but I'm just saying that some degree of tension is definitely necessary, IMO.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Bulerias2005)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bulerias2005
Oh, yeah, the tension I am describing is very minimal. Too much and one's hands are way too stiff to do anything. It's a very delicate balance, but I'm just saying that some degree of tension is definitely necessary, IMO.
One mans tension another man's poise and yet another's slouching. It really is hard to talk about quality of muscle tone...... I blame gymn teachers and sergeant majors and mmmmm anyone but myself.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
I used to believe this, but am starting to think that you can actually play very fast with minimal tension (you know, like almost all teachers tell us, but we don't really believe them, because, well, it's just unnecessary and we don't like that dead feeling our hand, we think we should be _doing_ something).
made me chuckle, especially "we think we should be doing something" - so true!
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Bulerias2005)
quote:
I'm just saying that some degree of tension is definitely necessary
It might depend on your working definition of "tension".
If you are using that word to mean (the sensation of) having two opposing sets of muscles turned on at the same time, then even if it's just a little bit, that is in no way going to help with any kind of movement performance.
If you are using that word to mean any muscular contraction, then yes, you are going to need muscular contraction, because that is what creates movement at a joint.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
I used to believe this, but am starting to think that you can actually play very fast with minimal tension (you know, like almost all teachers tell us, but we don't really believe them, because, well, it's just unnecessary and we don't like that dead feeling our hand, we think we should be _doing_ something).
made me chuckle, especially "we think we should be doing something" - so true!
Reminds me on a lesson with Paco Peña who (when i stroked a chord with the thump) insisted i'd played it with a complete dead hand. That lesson was not enough for me to get it done, because that level of relaxation was (and is) beyond my usual capacities. Keep trying he said when i left.... the result will amaze you. Amaze was a huge understatement because when i finally succeeded playing like that (after 2 hours of struggling) that dead hand (using gravity only) almost split my guitar in two and produced the most clean and spectacular sound that ever escaped my guitar. After enjoying playing like that for a wile i went to bed.... I was never able to repeat that ever again but i had similar "1 day only" experiences with alzapua and the i finger moving up and down (stroking chords), all combining zero input with perfect output. The same applies to the left hand, at my very best moments it played as light as a feather, investing little or no energy wile getting the most wonderful outcome in return (quite often left hand problems are caused by insufficient relaxation). The few times in my life i seriously invested time and energy in studying/playing "as light as possible" the results were unanimously spectacular (unfortunately true relaxing is far from relaxing if you haven't mastered it yet and in the beginning demands tons of mental focus/energy and constant nursing).
_____________________________
The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
I'm just saying that some degree of tension is definitely necessary
It might depend on your working definition of "tension".
If you are using that word to mean (the sensation of) having two opposing sets of muscles turned on at the same time, then even if it's just a little bit, that is in no way going to help with any kind of movement performance.
If you are using that word to mean any muscular contraction, then yes, you are going to need muscular contraction, because that is what creates movement at a joint.
I'm not offering a technical definition because I was iffy on the word "tension" to begin with. All I know is that there is a definite difference in *insert word I'm looking for here* when you compare flailing around with an arpeggio, where you are missing strings occasionally, to a very controlled, accurate, and fast arpeggio.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
Erich, I have had "once-in-a-lifetime" experiences like that. Harold Taylor wrote a book called "The Pianist's Talent", where he postulates that great talents are simply naturally coordinated. Once in a while, we can accidentally (or through Alexander Training) improve our coordination and get a glimpse into their world of ease and perfect use of our bodies. Reminds me a bit of an Isaac Asimov sci fi story where a character gets revenge on an ex by somehow contriving for her to, one night only, sing like an angel.
Daniel, It is possible that some seemingly extra tension in the hand is useful. There are just too many stiff little fingers out there in the flamenco world, all-world category, for me to believe they are all just doing it wrong. The hand needs to be stabilized in some manner.
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
After lot of practice, you can put it in strict rhythm of 6 notes per beat, yet the last note is silent each time. Only after you achieve the tempo you want will you then add the index finger note back in to the sequence for a full pimami....
Ricardo
when the middle has played the 5th note in the sequence and you are skipping playing the last i note.. where is the i finger? hovering over the 3rd string? planted on the 3rd string? or staying bent from playing the 2nd note in the sequence?
RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
or through Alexander Training
I heart of that before, just googled it and found a nice advise for musicians: in stead of wondering "what should i do to get this done" one should wonder "what should i not do to get this done" :-).
Did you also experience moments were your subconsciousness took over control of your hands for a couple of seconds/minutes, cutting of the brain while playing the strings better then ever? It happened to me frequently in exactly the short periods in my life i invested tons of energy in playing as light and efficient as possible. Those moments really showed me what i was capable of, although it actually felt someone else was using my hands and it was not me playing the guitar (which made it different from similar moments of perfection like the once-in-a-lifetime experiences were my subconsciousness was involved as well but i still felt it was me plying the guitar and not someone else). My best study moments were a very refined balance between extreme mental awareness/control and knowing when to trust your fingers to find some truth themselves.
_____________________________
The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
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