Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
Practicing right hand arpeggios
I have spent a lot of time recently practicing righthandarpeggios with the focus being on stability and reliability.
I have been practicing very slowly utilizing the placing the finger on the string prior to executing the strike method. Focusing on always striking the string the same way with the same part of the flesh and nail. I find this method gives me a sense of security as although the placement of the finger prior to striking happens in a subtle way, i feel it makes me focus on the movement required to make an even sound. It also feels as though the prior placement is something to base the movement upon. If that makes sense.
The problem is, the more i practice this the more classical my technique sounds. The note becomes thicker, cleaner and richer. This is not a bad thing but i feel as though i am loosing some of the sounds created but unconventional technique. Some of the coolest moments for me have come from something unconventional if you know what i mean. Unfortunately a more sweeping across the strings style arpeggio technique feels very unreliable but sounds more flamenco to me.
Take this for example...
P i m a ----- ---------------------0------------------------------------------ ----------------------0----------------------0----------------------- ----------------1-----------------------0----------------------------- -------------------------------- ---2----------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------0-----------------------------------------------------------
At high speed, do you think about the first ima motion as separated strokes all finding the string individually prior to executing the technique? Or do you find all three strings simultaneously as one motion and release the arpeggio as one movement?
I was hoping Jason, Grisha or others could give their thoughts on this and wonder if anyone has had the same conversation with themselves?
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: Practicing right hand arpeggios (in reply to KMMI77)
Here is another arpeggio i have been practicing as a loop...
a m p i m i a i a m i a m i p m i a i p i a p mpm -----------------------------------------0--------------------------- 0-------------------0-------------- ------------------0-------3------------------3---------2----------------------2------------------------ ----------4--------------------4------------------4---------4-----------4----------4------------4-----4 ------4-------4------4-------------4----------------------------4--------------------------------------- --2------------------------------------------------------0----------------------0------------0------0--- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When playing an arpeggio like this and placing the fingers on the strings prior to executing each stroke do you feel a little bouncing in the movement of the righthand?
When i preview this post it is squishing all the righthand fingering up so it is not above the correct notes however they should be in the right order. The a and the m coincide with there is more than one note played at the same time.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Practicing right hand arpeggios (in reply to KMMI77)
The thing you talk about is planting of the finger before the actual stroke. It is real important, I call it "grip". You can preplant the fingers also called a full plant, or in order of strokes a split second before you play, that is called "sequential plant".
In general, flamencos will do full plants for p ima, and sequential for pami, but some players, like Nuñez, always do sequential plants.
Don't feel like because you play with control and clean that you are doing something more classical. To get more "bite", examine your hand position and thumb position when you do arps. Is your thumb out to the side close to sound hole or under your hand? are your fingers curled or straight? One classical guitarist talked about "clawing" at the string with bent fingers is a bad sound, but in flamenco we do that sometimes for a bright, metallic attack. Also how close to the bridge are you vs over the sound hole?
When doing your second arp exercise, NO BOUNCING I think is better. Keep the hand still and stable by resting the thumb.
RE: Practicing right hand arpeggios (in reply to KMMI77)
Ricardo is correct. Planting is a VERY important part of playing guitar and having a control of this - and I mean control of "doing it" or "not doing it" or "somewhere in between" - will allow you to explore textures a lot more readily, not to mention increasing accuracy and reliability. In playing arpeggios, I think I almost always do planting. In picados, it depends.
Ricardo has already mentioned sequential and full planting. Both are very useful and once you get used to them you will be able to choose intuitively depending on the context.
If you begin to sound more classical, don't despair. It's probably because you are not used to planting and your fingers are either just a little tense or the speed of your attack is a little too slow. Once you get used to planting you will be able to freely create the texture you want.
Also make sure you explore the "pushing the strings in to the soundboard" technique if you don't already know! and oh, bouncing is a no no as far as I'm concerned.
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: Practicing right hand arpeggios (in reply to KMMI77)
Thanks Riardo and por medio! I really appreciate you guys taking the time to respond. I have access to some great classical guitarists who have real control over the instrument but needed to hear from some flamenco's regarding arpeggios.
Ricardo. I will continue practicing and experimenting with my hand position. Thanks for sharing your and gerardos approach. The bouncing i am experiencing is coming from my fingers pushing down on the string a little 2 much when planting in slow motion. When playing slowly do you accentuate the planting more? or do you make sure that the planting is so soft that the string does not move towards the body of the guitar?
Por medio, You are right, I am sure that with time and more slow practice my hand will feel more relaxed and allow for variations and more control. Maybe you can share your knowledge on the pushing the strings into the sound board technique. When is this best utilized? I find that if i extend the finger into the string during planting the release creates outward movement or bouncing.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Practicing right hand arpeggios (in reply to KMMI77)
quote:
ORIGINAL: KMMI77
Thanks Riardo and por medio! I really appreciate you guys taking the time to respond. I have access to some great classical guitarists who have real control over the instrument but needed to hear from some flamenco's regarding arpeggios.
Ricardo. I will continue practicing and experimenting with my hand position. Thanks for sharing your and gerardos approach. The bouncing i am experiencing is coming from my fingers pushing down on the string a little 2 much when planting in slow motion. When playing slowly do you accentuate the planting more? or do you make sure that the planting is so soft that the string does not move towards the body of the guitar?
I find I grip more, or harder, if I want more volume and attack, regardless of speed. In other words you may push into the strings when going fast too, not necessarily lightening up to go fast. Check this video at 1:45-2:10. The SHADOW of his fingers planting on the strings is clear. It is fast, if you can slow it down after download it may help too, but you can see the strings moving as he grips em before the release.
Another good view of arps and planting and hand position is this one, :24-:50, and faster at 1:34 you can see nothing really changes:
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: Practicing right hand arpeggios (in reply to KMMI77)
quote:
Check this video at 1:45-2:10. The SHADOW of his fingers planting on the strings is clear. It is fast, if you can slow it down after download it may help too, but you can see the strings moving as he grips em before the release.
Another good view of arps and planting and hand position is this one, :24-:50, and faster at 1:34 you can see nothing really changes: [/quote
Thanks ricardo! I learnt a lot focusing in on those videos. I especially noticed that during tico tico, Pacos thumb always returns to another string, or the body of the guitar to rest and stabilize the hand. He has great control of his thumbs rest stroke during arpeggios.
I used to do all my thumb strokes as rest strokes whilst playing arpeggios or tremelo for example. Eventually i decided to change to playing free strokes as it was a technique that i battled with. My hand is now confused. I need more practice. Especially after watching Paco again.
RE: Practicing right hand arpeggios (in reply to KMMI77)
First off, Kris your playing is already very inspiring, I checked out your youtube posts- very original and musical.
e.g. Buleria in dropped b
or in Rondeña tuning-
Thanks to advice given on the foro before, I am really noticing a difference in my arppegio. I'm a less advanced player than yourself but I will share my experience; I too chose to really work on my arppegio which has always been my weakness, I am really reaping the rewards of good advice from the foro and time with the good old metronome!
I like the description of plant as 'grip' I feel so much more in control and have power I get a flamenco "snap" in the sound that people here talk about. It's as if I now feel picado and arppegio to be much more similar than before, any technical or hand change feels much more subtle now.
I plant sequential for pami and pima other than the very fast tril type appergio
ln pimami I plant the i,m almost together and then sequentially a, m, i.
I play several other types of appegio and always sequentially plant, e.g pimimamiami or pimamami, I like the alternating mi or am within the appergio
I also notice that planting the thumb has made perhaps the most significant difference in speed, tone, power and control.
RE: Practicing right hand arpeggios (in reply to KMMI77)
quote:
Por medio, You are right, I am sure that with time and more slow practice my hand will feel more relaxed and allow for variations and more control. Maybe you can share your knowledge on the pushing the strings into the sound board technique. When is this best utilized? I find that if i extend the finger into the string during planting the release creates outward movement or bouncing.
"Pushing the strings into the soundboard" means pretty much that: when you plant the finger, before you begin your attack push the string into the soundboard (i.e. towards the guitar). Then as you begin the attack (gees that word "attack" doesn't deliver the connotations that I want but it's the only word I can think of at the moment ) you've got to "carry the string" with your fingertip just a little bit more as the finger leaves the strings so the quality of the tone and volume are maximised (i.e. it's not a sudden departure or a "pluck").
It's a well-used technique amongst classical guitarists so if you know one who is good then ask him/her! Oh of course when you do it well you'll be able to not make it sound classical Again the lack of tension in the fingers and faster speed of attack is what it'll make sound flamenco. It is likely that you may have to fiddle with the nail shape and the placement of the attack on the fingertip as you get used to the planting and pushing.
Oh looked at few of your youtube clips. GREAT compas! Your arpeggio is already very good and your tone is fantastic even through the computer so I hope the tips help you to become an even better guitarist.
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: Practicing right hand arpeggios (in reply to KMMI77)
quote:
I plant sequential for pami and pima other than the very fast tril type appergio
I am practicing this system.
Thanks for your positive reaction to my playing orsonw and por medio. It is nice to be able to share stuff with you guys. That's what i like about you tube. You know how when a friend comes to visit and you show each other the new falsetas you have been working on, Now with you tube it is possible to share the idea with everyone who's interested. I really enjoy that side of you tube. Plus, in australia there are only a few people interested in a falseta por bulerias. Ha Ha!
Thanks for sharing your advice guys, I learn a lot from these posts.
Printable Version
and oh, bouncing is a no no as far as I'm concerned.
) you've got to "carry the string" with your fingertip just a little bit more as the finger leaves the strings so the quality of the tone and volume are maximised (i.e. it's not a sudden departure or a "pluck"). 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread