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RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger arpeggios?
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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 RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
Did you also experience moments were your subconsciousness took over control of your hands for a couple of seconds/minutes, cutting of the brain while playing the strings better then ever?
If your brain was cut off from your hands then we would describe your hands (and your arms too) as "paralysed"! 
The process which causes our hands to move starts with commands from the brain via the nervous system.
Anything that gets in the way of that process detracts from the quality of the performance. 
If we can improve that process, then our performance improves. 
Then how would your describe a situation were you actually feel something entering your body/system (without any warning in front) AFTER WHICH from 1 second to the other your hands start to live a life of their own, obeying that force rather then your brain, often going in the opposite direction your brain tell/expect them to go (grabbing alternative chords i never new existed but turn out to be way better then the ones i had in mind), quite often integrating techniques i never saw before wile playing music i never heart before, using an efficiency i can only dream of...in short hands not communicating with the brain anymore but playing the guitar at levels way way way above my own capacities? All those effects are gone the moment i feel that force leaves my body.
It took me years to find 1 person who enjoyed those moments as well (1 of the best stage performers i ever met) and he told me on those moments the subconsciousness takes over control of your body. When i studied the subject it turned out there is a world of wonders we brainy people have no clue of because we lost contact with that part of our abilities. If we can restore our excess to that mega force then our performance would really improve, surpassing your wildest dreams.
Last time it happened to me (20 years ago) was during a public performance and wile my hand performed their miracles my brain enjoyed the spectacle as an outsider wile having in between conversations with people standing around me. Not 1 braincell was involved in the actual performance, unless it is a part of the brain my consciousness and hands have no access to under normal conditions. So the question remains if the subconsciousness is directed by another part of the brain (not using the part of the brain we normally use so it remains free to do other things) or found ways around the brain. I tend to believe it found ways around the brain. With the exception of the last one it always happened in periods i was studying the guitar extremely intense and at the highest level possible, which is a very delicate balance between demanding 100% awareness/control of the brain and an intuitive cense when to trust your fingers to find better ways, ways not understand by the brain. Still there is a huge gap between that level of control (were it still felt like me playing the guitar) and the rare situations i really felt another force was taking over control of the playing and it was not longer me playing the guitar. It totally match the travel and final arrival described in "zen and the art of archery".
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Date May 12 2014 13:50:53
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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Erich,
I have never had an experience quite like that--"possession by a musical daemon" so to speak.
Being a new tennis player, I am aware of how conscious thinking--Self Two, as Tim Gallwey calls it--interferes with the body's performance and how most of the athletic moves should be left to the subconscious.
It is an interesting coincidence, I just finished reading a science fiction book called "Blindsight" that, at its heart, questions whether consciousness is a valuable adaptive trait or is actually a waste of resources. Aliens appear that do not have consciousness, but are extremely intelligent and powerful, partly because they are using their neural matter more efficiently. There exist many neurological conditions where damage to the brain causes odd problems and sometimes gives amazing abilities. The savants that can calculate huge numbers in an instant, the man who could remember everything he ever saw (but couldn't forget it). Or "blindsight", where people think they are blind, act blind, but if you throw something at their face, they will catch it or hit it away. Then they will still insist they didn't see anything!
I agree with you that for most of us mortals, removing interferences is the greatest and most important source of improvement. Harold Taylor's definition of talent is "the ability to perform without training."
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Date May 12 2014 17:59:56
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
There exist many neurological conditions where damage to the brain causes odd problems and sometimes gives amazing abilities. The savants that can calculate huge numbers in an instant, the man who could remember everything he ever saw (but couldn't forget it).
The great Argentine writer Jorge Luis Borges wrote a short story entitled "Funes el Memorioso" (Funes the Memorious) in which the protagonist, Ireneo Funes, receives a head injury from a fall from a horse, and thereafter remembers everything, no matter how small the detail, he had ever experienced or encountered in life. He is poor and uneducated, and thus cannot think in Platonic terms or in general or abstract terms. He only remembers uncounted details of the shape of clouds, cracks in walls, as well as every thought he had when encountering these details. At one point, Borges provides him with books in Latin. Upon a subsequent visit Borges is greeted by Funes's voice speaking perfect Latin, reciting "the first paragraph of the twenty-fourth chapter of the seventh book of the Historia Naturalis" (by Pliny the Elder). Funes cannot sleep because he cannot forget such detailed perceptions and they are constantly on his mind. He died at the age of 19.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 12 2014 23:12:23
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Bulerias2005
Posts: 632
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN
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RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
I'm not offering a technical definition because I was iffy on the word "tension" to begin with.
All I know is that there is a definite difference in *insert word I'm looking for here* when you compare flailing around with an arpeggio, where you are missing strings occasionally, to a very controlled, accurate, and fast arpeggio.
I was just checking out what you meant by using the word.
It is often used by different people to mean slightly different things, so it's often useful to check what someone means before agreeing, disagreeing or adding to what they say. 
the "flailing around missing strings" is unlikely to be caused by a lack of "tension" though, whichever definition you use.
....more likely caused by lack of co-ordination (I understand co-ordination to mean the appropriate instructions from the brain to the muscles in the right sequence and timing).
depending on definition, both "tension" (opposing/wrong muscles contracted) and "over-tension" (right muscles contracted, but too much) would come under the heading of "lack of co-ordination".
I feel like these sort of concepts are nigh impossible to describe over text... but I know that the "tension" I'm referring to is pretty critical, whether it is lack of coordination or something else, because I have helped a lot of students massively improve their arpeggio technique within a few minutes by physically adjusting their hand position and having them compare/contrast the flailing movement with a more precise, coordinated movement.
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Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
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Date May 13 2014 0:46:54
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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quote:
Then how would your describe a situation were you actually feel something entering your body/system (without any warning in front) AFTER WHICH from 1 second to the other your hands start to live a life of their own, obeying that force rather then your brain, often going in the opposite direction your brain tell/expect them to go (grabbing alternative chords i never new existed but turn out to be way better then the ones i had in mind), quite often integrating techniques i never saw before wile playing music i never heart before, using an efficiency i can only dream of...in short hands not communicating with the brain anymore but playing the guitar at levels way way way above my own capacities? All those effects are gone the moment i feel that force leaves my body.
It took me years to find 1 person who enjoyed those moments as well (1 of the best stage performers i ever met) and he told me on those moments the subconsciousness takes over control of your body. When i studied the subject it turned out there is a world of wonders we brainy people have no clue of because we lost contact with that part of our abilities. If we can restore our excess to that mega force then our performance would really improve, surpassing your wildest dreams.
Last time it happened to me (20 years ago) was during a public performance and wile my hand performed their miracles my brain enjoyed the spectacle as an outsider wile having in between conversations with people standing around me. Not 1 braincell was involved in the actual performance, unless it is a part of the brain my consciousness and hands have no access to under normal conditions. So the question remains if the subconsciousness is directed by another part of the brain (not using the part of the brain we normally use so it remains free to do other things) or found ways around the brain. I tend to believe it found ways around the brain. With the exception of the last one it always happened in periods i was studying the guitar extremely intense and at the highest level possible, which is a very delicate balance between demanding 100% awareness/control of the brain and an intuitive cense when to trust your fingers to find better ways, ways not understand by the brain. Still there is a huge gap between that level of control (were it still felt like me playing the guitar) and the rare situations i really felt another force was taking over control of the playing and it was not longer me playing the guitar. It totally match the travel and final arrival described in "zen and the art of archery".
I don't have a definitive explanation for what happened to you. But I do know that despite the cutting edge discoveries of neuroscience the brain is still a mysterious organ that we will probably never fully understand.
So I am fully prepared to believe that you can have an experience such as you describe, but I don't need to explain it by any outside agency, as our brains are already strange, powerful, and seemingly magical enough already to make that happen.
When I use the word "brain" I think that is much more than the mental chatterbox, or the analytical and critical parts of our consciousness. I think our consciousness is much bigger than that.
I have no problem believing that the rational and logical parts of your brain that usually judge what is happening weren't involved in playing that music, while the motor cortex still sent out the commands to the fingers.
I also know that our sensation of what is happening to us is not reliable.
We surely all know the old cliché of the performer who feels inspired, they feel they have given their best performance, and the audience thinks it was average, just going through the motions.
Another time the artist doesn't feel like playing, but they are obliged, so they go through the motions and the audience is ecstatic, thinks it is the best performance. Why? because our [physical] feelings are not reliable.
To illustrate what I am getting at, try this experiment.
Prepare 3 bowls of water.
In the first put hot water, in the second room temperature water, and in the third really cold water.
Now put one hand in the hot water and one in the cold water.
Leave them there for a few minutes and then put both hands into the second bowl, the room temperature water.
One hand is gonna tell you the water is hot, but the other hand will tell you the water is cold.
They are both wrong, because the water is neither hot nor cold. But they are also both right, because (physical) feelings are not absolute, they are relative.
So relative to the previous hot water the water is cold, relative to the previous cold water the water is hot.
In the same way if someone plays with a level of residual muscular tension all the time and suddenly (for whatever reason) plays without that "normal" level of tension they will get all kinds of weird sensation, could be something like a "kinaesthetic feeling of lightness", or could feel like they have been taken over by a spiritual presence, or could be that they feel afraid, or in pain, could be anything, it is not predictable.
If that person is able to repeatedly recreate those conditions eventually they won't get these weird feelings, it will just feel "normal" to play like that.
When I talked about improving the process of commands from the brain to the muscles via the nervous system, what I am mostly hinting at is getting our interfering, worrying, analytical, critical, judging mental chatterbox [is that what you mean by "we brainy people"?] out of the way.
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Date May 13 2014 14:31:58
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Ruphus)
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No, the visual illusions do not. They merely serve to show that one should "believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see." But given that we have all had times where we operated on a mysteriously higher level, it seems that we all have greater possibilities hidden somewhere inside us. I believe that in some respects, most of us are using only a fraction of our musical abilities. After all, some people have had half of their brains removed and still function well. Think of how much better most people play when they sing and use that to connect to their musicality. Or practice with eyes closed. These abilities are hidden somehow--the roads not taken, blocked off by other choices or influences or wiring. Occasionally we get glimpses into our true potential, and it feels so weird and effortless, we think we've been possessed by a tuneful devil!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemispherectomy#Results
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Date May 13 2014 16:14:49
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
The mind is mysterious, our observations are unreliable, our memories are custom-filtered recreations, and definitely--all is not as it seems. Here are some cool visual illusions:
Spot-on, Miguel. For additional cool examples, one need look no further than the lithographs and prints of M.C. Escher. For starters, take a look at Escher's works, "Convex and Concave," "Waterfall," "Ascending and Descending," "Relativity," and "Belvedere." They are visual representations of some of the best short stories by Jorge Luis Borges. Escher and Borges, although operating in different spheres, created works that bring into question one's preconceived assumptions. Both created brilliant works that stretch the mind.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 13 2014 16:19:47
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
The mind is mysterious, our observations are unreliable, our memories are custom-filtered recreations, and definitely--all is not as it seems. Here are some cool visual illusions:
Spot-on, Miguel. For additional cool examples, one need look no further than the lithographs and prints of M.C. Escher. For starters, take a look at Escher's works, "Convex and Concave," "Waterfall," "Ascending and Descending," "Relativity," and "Belvedere." They are visual representations of some of the best short stories by Jorge Luis Borges. Escher and Borges, although operating in different spheres, created works that bring into question one's preconceived assumptions. Both created brilliant works that stretch the mind.
Cheers,
Bill
And yet Borges seemed to be making the opposite point entirely in the Aleph with regards to experiences like Eric's and the interpretations that people like me would choose.
Or did he, or didn't he........... or DID he ?.......or DIDN'T he ?
D.
Yes he did.
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Date May 13 2014 16:39:32
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
I also know that our sensation of what is happening to us is not reliable.
We surely all know the old cliché of the performer who feels inspired, they feel they have given their best performance, and the audience thinks it was average, just going through the motions.
Another time the artist doesn't feel like playing, but they are obliged, so they go through the motions and the audience is ecstatic, thinks it is the best performance. Why? because our [physical] feelings are not reliable.
I'm completely aware of that but this seems to be of an other order. To me the difference between these moments and other moments of (sudden) superb playing/inspiration is that in these cases i actually feel its presence a split second before magic start to happen, i can feel it highjacking my hands (in the spirit of "let me show you how to do this") and most of all it is not longer me playing the guitar (which makes it totally different from all other moments of superb inspiration were it was still me performing the magic). As soon as this very strongly felt presence of "it" regrettably leaves me again (after seconds/minutes) i instantly regain control over my hands again and all spectacle is gone. That's a little more then change of moods or point of perception.
As far as perception is concerned, the one and only time it happened in the company of others 30 people changed "perception" about my playing simultaneously. It was my first meeting/gig with my future dance group and we were only doing 1 or 2 songs together. They planed to perform a couple of other songs with a pre-recorded tape and when the restaurant had troubles starting it (which took quite a lot of time) i spontaneously decided to play some solo's to enjoy the public. I didn't play very well at all and the audience rightfully enjoyed them self with talking, drinking and eating, not paying attention to my playing at all. I never ever expected it to turn op in that situation at all but suddenly there it was. As soon as it took over control i (it) played like on the devils fiddle. Since my brain (or at least the part known to me) was not longer involved in the playing i could totally enjoy both the playing and the publics reaction as a spectator. Within seconds all precent stopped talking/ eating/drinking to enjoy this once in a lifetime spectacle. When the last note of the piece fade away so did "it" (never to return again). Reduced to my own level of playing (after a huge applause) the audience needed only a few seconds to realize the show was over and started talking/eating/drinking again wile i continued my not so well playing. Once the tape was fixed, the dancers took over, finished the show and we retreated to our private "room" to enjoy a meal ourself. Hours past before we packed to leave the building. As it happened i walked a little behind the others and the very moment i passed the dining table all still precent gave me a sitting ovation and numerous compliments for that very memorable moment.
Is it a coincidence that my second of delusion matched that of 30 others ?
(obviously one could claim that perception was a not objective, unreliable sensation as well :-).
I like to add that similar moments creativity also happen to me without the presence of "it", including outbursts of technical novelties and new musical ideas that seem to come out of the blue (but often turn out to be nicked) and often are executed with an incredible ease and flow without any training, using the subconsciousness rather then the consciousness. But the main difference is that at those moments it is still me playing the guitar, using the subconsciousness rather then the consciousness. But the very rare occasions were "it" makes it's entrance (highjacking my hands and totally overruling the brain) is of a completely different order. Maybe it is indeed the same source but just a level higher.
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Date May 13 2014 18:37:16
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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RE: Tips to speed up my three-finger... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Erich,
Harold Taylor wrote a book called "The Pianist's Talent", where he postulates that great talents are simply naturally coordinated. Once in a while we can accidentally (or through Alexander training) improve our coordination and get a glimpse into their world of ease
I don't know what aspects Harold included in "naturally coordinated", but in my experience an underestimated and extremely important part of studying/playing (which highly separates natural players from less natural players) is the amount of interference between thought and execution. Natural players first of all have a natural ability to express "what they feel inside" with their fingers and as a result the music they play match the music they feel inside. You will be amazed how often this is not the case with "less talented" players (i'm talking about playing different phrasings/accents then you believe you do).
Many times i witnessed experienced players struggling with phrases they really should be able to play quite easily. When "studying" they would repeat a couple of bars over and over again, making the same mistakes over and over again while playing phrasings and accents i could not believe were their intention at all.
In those cases i would ask them to lay down their instrument for a few seconds and to sing me the very same phrase in stead. In general i had to repeat that question before they understand i actually wanted them to sing it to me. Once they did they generally did so with a better flow correct accents, which proves somehow somewhere something went terrible wrong between their brains and their fingers. And now comes the most important part..... after i made them sing the theme a couple of times on a row i would tell them "now play it exactly like that" and without any exception each and every one of them were able to play it fluently and with perfect accents in the very first take, doing in minutes what they could not do in over an hour of struggle before. All of them claimed the world would never be the same again.... and as far as i know they all fall back in old habits even faster as they learned that phrase.
It's an educated guess that if you concentrate on your fingers you tend to forget the original message and soon start playing accents that fit the technique rather then the music and as soon as you start making translation mistakes like that your playing looses connection with your inner feeling after which you are not longer able to play that phrase with natural flow and accents again, no matter how often you practice it. I guess singing the phrase a couple of times before playing it on your guitar brings you back to the unpolluted source. I also believe that when you pick up your guitar again and play that phrase effortless in 1 take (doing in seconds what 1 hour of previous struggle could not solve) your brain is still tuned in on that unpolluted source (not minding the fingers at all) and as a result generates nerve pulses not polluted by interference.
So a very very important part of studying should be to improve/check your ability to express yourself without making translation mistakes. There are 2 important things you should do:
* give your fingers random (simple) tasks to be executed exactly like intended (rhythms/dynamics/etc).
* compare your pieces/repertoire with the unpolluted source... phrase by phrase (sing sing sing).
You will notice that at places that go wrong all the time your playing does not match the unpolluted (inner) source.....as soon as you level the difference (in favor of the original source) the problem generally is solved instantly (assuming the music is up to your level).
I can tell first hand that unpolluted (inner) source is not restricted to the music interpretation only. Somehow somewhere in your DNA is a blueprint that tells you how to play it technically. If your blueprint prescribes a certain finger/technique and you use a different one your'e screwed. I noticed this during extremely demanding full focused studies that (over time) allowed me to visualize my playing in my head as real as real can be. In general the fingers i used during virtual guitar playing matched the fingers i used for real playing but every now and then i noticed a difference. Those were also the very same spots things went wrong in my real playing without clear cause. Once again, as soon as i changed my playing finger for the one visualized by my brain during the virtual playing the problem was solved instantly.
So the trick is to make sure your actions match the unpolluted source. Natural players seem to do this quite naturally. Less natural players can sometimes enjoy these qualities when they have "a good day". But it is possible to cultivate "having a good day" by simply comparing your output with the unpolluted inner source (sing sing sing), phrase by phrase, leveling the difference in favor of the original source. All you have to do is pick up a phrase and compare what is played by your fingers with your inner voice. If you notice a difference sing it a couple of times, then play it ONCE, sing it a couple of times again, play it once etc. As soon as you are able to play it a couple of times on a row without falling back in old habits you can start drilling that phrase on your guitar, replacing old habits for better ones. Obviously you have to understand your guitar and your body as well. I tend to believe relaxed hands/fingers are more perceptive for the original message as less relaxed fingers (adding new nerve info to an already tensed muscle is a bit like having a conversation in a loud disco... despite shouting still half of the info will not reach it's destination)! Vicente had extremely relaxed fingers from the very start. Personally i favor very short nails (shorter nails>less resistance>less disturbance/interference).
4 times in my life extremely intense study sessions involving lots of visualization, singing and other not widely used but extremely effective study habits enabled me to (temporary) reach a level of playing were i could (eventually) play my repertoire 100% to my likings, (time after time) including real time variations without additional studying (based on the fact i successfully restored my ability to link my actions to my inner source without interference). It was during these extremely dedicated study sessions (playing better as ever and at a very very constant level) that i also enjoyed my rare meetings with "it", so as far as i can judge it at the time there was not much room for fluctuating perception (the only time ever "it" visit me outside these very intense study periods was the public performance i mentioned previously, when i already had returned to old bad habits again).
I like to add that when singing i do not necessarily sing all the notes of for instance a double arpeggio (to return to the subject of the original poster), i sing the main line with it's natural flow and accents, exactly the line i like to stand out when playing the piece. All the extra notes attached to that line are added in such a way they do not disturb that flow and have a natural relation to the part/notes they are linked to. You can zoom in on details if you want...often multiple layers of music have to be balanced and when studying i tend to play the main line first and then ad the additional coloring layers 1 by 1 in order of importance and mutual relationship, balancing details without loosing the bigger picture (that's also the way my father annotates flamenco for his students, showing the notes as well as the multiple musical layers).
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Date May 15 2014 0:28:52
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