wiggly pinky when doing arps

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johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

wiggly pinky when doing arps

Hi all,

I would really appreciate any advice with solving this issue. I guess its a bit similar to the thread Ramzi started here.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=172049&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=pinky

In my case my pink involuntarily moves whilst using the A finger. I am pretty sure its increasing tension there and causing hand movement thats stopping me being able to relax and speed up.

My

Anyone else dealt with such a thing.

Many thanks.

Simon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 10:19:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: wiggly pinky when doing arps (in reply to johnnefastis)

Both gerardo and tomatito do this too.

check close up 2:55...but it's all the time throughout the piece:

http://youtu.be/n7l2STtFhEA

If it doesn't hurt or tire you , then it is not a problem I would say.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 11:25:46

burnsbyrne

Posts: 44
Joined: Sep. 17 2005
From: NE Ohio, USA

RE: wiggly pinky when doing arps (in reply to johnnefastis)

Your ring and little fingers share a tendon sheath which is why the little one often does what the ring finger is doing. It would cause tension and consume energy to stop it so, unless it causes you problems, it is better to just let the pinkie do what it wants.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 12:23:12

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: wiggly pinky when doing arps (in reply to johnnefastis)

Use a mirror.
It helps a lot with keeping focus and to establish the sensation of how it feels when the pinky is on holiday.

I used to splay out that thing and got rid of the superfluous contraction much easier than expected after partially incorporating mirror image into practising time.
Practising before a mirror is really useful anyway.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 12:28:09

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: wiggly pinky when doing arps (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

I guess its a bit similar to the thread Ramzi started here.

First of all, great sounding guitar & arpeggios!

Second of all, have you ever in the past been taught or just willingly decided that you wanted your pinky to stick out regardless of what technique you were doing, and now you want to reverse this? Or was the pinky sticking out naturally & now you just want to remedy the situation?

My case was the former, meaning that my body did NOT want to do that in & of itself, but due to forced habit, it learned to do so & thus when I un-learned that, I felt a great deal of tension get released from my hand.

If your case is the latter, then perhaps that natural tension is fine for your hand & you might as well just stick with it as Ricardo alluded to some maestros' hands looking like that.

If you regardless of the above want to reset this & stop your pinky from wiggling or sticking out, then you can do what I did.

DISCLOSURE: this is going to be a lengthy process & I imagine it will take you at least 6 months to reset this situation...

I tried many things & kudos to you for seeing my thread.

However, the crux of the matter is this: get a mirror, make your hand do what you want it to do, and slowly build up the speed. For this to work, you have to go back to square one meaning you have to start at tempos of 40 bpm & asymptotically build up to what you can do now. If things go right, I think your arpeggios will improve overall.

Practice like this: play the p-i-m-a-m-i or just p-a-m-i arpeggios & make sure that your pinky moves in (i.e. flexes) all the way with your ring finger. Do not try to isolate the two fingers because as was pointed out above, they "share a tendon" & trying to get them to work more independently for the sake of arpeggios is not what you want to achieve. Imagine as though there is a rubber band around the pinky & ring fingers (I used an actual one initially but realized later that just SLOW & CONTROLLED practice with tons of patience is the better way to go... I also tried holding a coin between the two fingers, blah blah - read my thread

) such that they move together. Try to exaggerate the flexion of the pinky so that it (along with the ring finger) are nearly touching your palm as you do the arpeggios. Go really slowly & with great control, and really savor that movement & watch it in the mirror. Do not try to force your pinky into flexion & keep it there (because that visually looks "nicer" as it prevents the wiggling from occurring but increases the tension). Maybe just do this a tiny tiny bit at first to get a feel for what this will be like but the idea is for both fingers to move together & mirror each other to the point that you will not have the wiggling happening anymore because the two digits will just go side-by-side.

It's much easier for me to demonstrate with video but I don't have access to my gear now...

If you read the above & it is unclear despite you trying to make sense of it, please let me know & I will gladly make you a small clip.

Be patient & enjoy the journey!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 13:33:19

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: wiggly pinky when doing arps (in reply to johnnefastis)

Whoa thanks everyone that's helpful, loads of advice.
I originally got taught to use my pinky for rasgueos but regarding
arps, I was taught to slowly pull the fingers into the palm and returning them to create independence.

My reason for worrying about it is that I have never been that confident of fluid with arps and it kind of feels like
my pinky is going a bit crazy and kinda jolting my hand about.

Will definitely spend some time with a mirror and some slow practice and see if I can my pinky to follow the a finger a bit more.

Thanks again

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 15:03:23

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011

RE: wiggly pinky when doing arps (in reply to johnnefastis)

If you guys are really serious about 'solving' this. There is a solution.

But first we might want to look at some milder solutions:

You could play with your eyes closed, or you could spend less time in front of the mirror. Or, you could do what I do; play in front of a mirror with my eyes closed.

But before I enter the Great Pinkie Debate I must first confess that I had no idea what my pinkie was doing before I found out (because of the observations here posted) the contortions to which it was I was submitting my pinkie. Pics of people who can play calmed my fears.

My pinkie sticks out and kind of curls, as if tortured, when I'm playing well and playing fast. (Fast is relative, but not to me.)

However, it also crashes into my tremolo from time to time.

Flamenco pinkies are good for getting bits of bacon out of one's teeth and, I'm told, can come in handy for those sniffy types who like to get excitable.

Over the past thirty years I practised rsaguedo eamii and pei (is that how it's described? the triplet.) I couldn't do picado but my rasguedo while very lmited, is strong.

I thought that's what Paco did. I heard about flicking and things here. I always thought that flicked sound wasn't done by flicking so I gave my fingers the Swarzenegger treatment.

They (pinkies) are good for other things too but worrying about what they want to do of their own free will is another matter. Rombsix differentiates. He wants to go back to his technique as nature intended. Why not? If it is clear then it is clear. I'm not so sure about my own pinkie's intentions.

But back to 'the' pinkie. I reckon my pinky feels neglected cause the other fingers get to do all the kool stuff, so he fcks up my tremolo, then I cut the bstard back to teach him a lesson. Then my rasguedo is sht so I ask him to forgive me.

Relax relax relax. We all know it. But we also know there is a structure upon which this relaxation kind of 'pivots'. There is huge tension amid the relaxation. And vice versa.

But the pinkie! Oh damned digit. What to do?

Cut it off, no? Isn't that the samurai flamenco way? No pinkie no worries. Players without pinkies will be admired by those, in the know. This Gordian knot, assaulting this forum and inducing many to leap to their mirrors, tongues sticking out, trying to play unmannered but obsessed that we might find we are pinkiepointers, slashed in a single stroke.

And the rest of us poossies, with our stickie out pinkies pleading that Tomitatito is a little gay too.

We might then get to the real problem. With the pinkie buried in the garden beside the budgie would we not settle down to play some fast picado and suddenly become cold when we feel the 'phantom pinkie' back to haunt us from beyond the grave?

Just kidding guys. Hope this all works out for you. (It would work, of course. And without all those endless hours of pinkie training ;-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 17:40:53

Don Dionisio

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: wiggly pinky when doing arps (in reply to johnnefastis)

Johnny,
Your pinky for the most part is fine. I would recommend that you try to be more aware of keeping it curled back like your ring finger as you did most of the time in this video. I'm not saying to add tension but just try to keep it in the same position as the other fingers and avoid (as much as possible) letting it extend out.
You don't need to go back to the beginning-you were able to go from slow to fast with good accuracy and little tension.
Good luck.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 18:42:38

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: wiggly pinky when doing arps (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis

... I was taught to slowly pull the fingers into the palm and returning them to create independence.

For one:
The best way to independence seems to be the achievement of reducing diverse pictured movements of a buncho digits into basically a single movement of your hand ( as a unit that leads fingers into evenly brushing ).

Secondly:
Why have you been tought to slowly pull the fingers into the palm and returning them ( actively)? Sounds like no good method to me.

This segment should be one of the exceptions where "slow" ain´t good at all, as it means prolonged flexing procedure which, you might have already guessed it, counters a timely and effortless return to idle.
You will likely find antagone muscles working simultaneously that way. A common recipe for blockage.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2014 18:45:59

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: wiggly pinky when doing arps (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

Why have you been tought to slowly pull the fingers into the palm and returning them ( actively)? Sounds like no good method to me.

It was how my first teacher was taught by Paco Peña in Holland with Eric. The idea was to do things slowly and over exaggerate movements to create independence. Always thought it made a bit of sense and would be happy with Paco Peñas arps.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 16 2014 11:33:41