Old Conde: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret?

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Old Conde: Can too much relief be altered during a full refret?

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silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

Old Conde: Can too much relief be al...

Need your expertise please.

Having an old (60s or 70s Pozuelo de Alarcon) 'studio' Conde refretted and the fingerboard cleaned up. The guitar has a bit too much relief. Can this be reduced a little once the frets are removed? The frets are absolutely mashed and do need replacing if you were wondering.

Thanks as always!
Nigel

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2024 18:59:44

Firefrets

Posts: 122
Joined: Mar. 22 2023

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

It's possible to use a compression fret technique to help straighten things out a little, if the new frets don't help, where the idea is to drive a slightly wider tang in to the fretboard, at determined locations. You can crimp the existing tangs a little if you have the tool.

This has an advantage over planing, as planing just weakens the neck further, and can also effect the nut slot break angle causing strings to hit the headstock.

I saw a Hermanos Conde go for £499 on Ebay a few days ago.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2024 11:23:23

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Firefrets)

That’s really interesting and useful information, thank you! The fingerboard will need a little planing anyway as there are areas that have gouging. The compression technique is fascinating and I will ask the luthier doing the work what is possible.

That was the guitar I bought. Got it for £450 as I was taking a risk and I could see the fingerboard and frets needed attention. Wasn’t expecting how much attention though. Still, it’s a lovely guitar and sounds sweet and smells good from the soundhole. Body and neck are in really good condition. No damage or repairs.

Thanks again!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2024 13:32:32

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1694
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Firefrets)

Another possibility is to use taller fret wire and file the tops of the frets, rather than planing the wood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2024 16:54:42

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Ah great, thank you very much, Ethan!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2024 17:07:32

Firefrets

Posts: 122
Joined: Mar. 22 2023

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

There are many ways to get a result, and your luthier will have his own ideas about things. He's really the guy you should talk to.

The refret itself will probably remove most of the relief, but trust in the guy's own judgement on each aspect. He's going to have her on his bench. There's a much bigger picture to consider when assessing a guitar that isn't possible here.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2024 15:00:28

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Firefrets)

Thank you, it's what I needed to hear!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2024 16:06:19

ernandez R

Posts: 766
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

Keep in mind there is relief and then there is the bowed neck.

Relief is in the .005” to .0010” around f7

Too much would be anything above .010”-.015”

As mentioned above your luthier should know. Bring your favorite guitar so he can measure it and use that as a baseline. Older/historic guitar might be happier longer with lower tendon strings or even tuned down half a step.

I wouldn’t tangle with getting back bow by using a too tight fret slot, I know it’s talked about but if your neck is that elastic you have other issues?

Still sounds like a fun guitar and for us mortals isn’t that what it’s all about?

HR

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2024 21:00:27

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to ernandez R)

Thank you very much, Ernandez!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 22 2024 10:14:36

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

If the frets are removed the person doing fret maintenance can put a straight edge on the fingerboard and determine several things. Relief that’s planed into the fingerboard is better to remove by planing the fingerboard flat and refretting normally. If the neck is bending to much under string tension and the fingerboard also has added relief, then it probably should be planed flat and have a few key frets slots shimmed and reslotted to make the fret fit tighter ( compression fretting) it if the neck wood is too bendable, it might be an opportunity to remove the fingerboard and put in carbon fiber stiffening spars in neck .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 23 2024 7:20:58

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks for that, Stephen, very useful. The frets are all over the place so by sight it is hard to tell if the fingerboard is flat, we will know more when the frets are out and the luthier gets his straight edge on the board. I'm thinking the dodgy frets may have contributed to the feeling of too much relief, but it certainly looked like a bit too much. I think it won't be too tricky to solve, and the board is nearly 7mm thick so a bit of room for planing/levelling I think. The 10.5mm bridge height may be more tricky, but there is plenty of room to take 1.5mm off the bone without the break angle suffering.

There is something odd though, sighting down the neck length, the headstock is slightly tilted to the treble side, the nut has been made to compensate.

The plantilla has quite flat shoulders and a little inelegant.

It's 90mm - 93mm so quite shallow, and a 648 scale length.

It seems well constructed otherwise but with a few slightly shoddy details.

The spruce top has a few bear claw areas which look pretty nice.

It's an interesting guitar, it seems unusual (to me) and I would love to know more about it. When the foro allows photographs again I'll start a separate thread I think.

Thanks again.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 23 2024 17:39:56

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

If the Ebony is 7mm thick and the saddle is 10.5 high that’s not a good flamenco set up. The neck could be set too far forward.

The thing to check is if the fingerboard can be be planed to lower the saddle, take out any scoops and then try to get the saddle in the 8 to 8.5 neighborhood. Like Tio Ricardo says, the action at the 12th fret is a matter of taste and fate, but the saddle height determines whether you can rip alzapua without getting a bloody stump of a thumb.

With 7mm of ebony the person doing the work could correct for too much forward neck angle by planing the fingerboard so it tapers back toward the nut like 1 to 1.5 mm- and at the same time lowering the saddle. This serves to take out any excess relief ( or relief imparted to the neck due to flex or pulling forward too much. Then the new frets with the tang bedded slightly deeper in the fret slot will give more resistance to the pulling up, all fret work is compression because of the tang pushing on the walls of the fret slot, but eventually ( or quickly) the tang digs into the side of the slot and the wood relaxes around the tang.

These micro phenomena are what good refret techs are all about, look at this situation for all these conditions of angles and wood compression. Sometimes an ebony board is too ‘spongy’ to give the tang something to push against, in that case there are various ways to shim the fret slot to make the compression greater, or use a few frets with wider tang in strategic locations.

It’s an interesting game 😆

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2024 1:23:39

Firefrets

Posts: 122
Joined: Mar. 22 2023

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

Unless I'm mistaken, the Conde guitar I saw go for £499.00 wasn't a studio guitar ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2024 10:36:28

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Firefrets)

That’s the one I bought. I thought a studio guitar was an unsigned undated guitar built by an apprentice. Am I wrong then?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2024 13:32:15

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to estebanana)

This is fascinating! Thanks Stephen.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2024 13:39:49

Firefrets

Posts: 122
Joined: Mar. 22 2023

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

I'm far from being an expert on the history of the Spanish guitar, but I think your guitar was likely built in the Conde workshop. I can only comment on guitars I've played, and I haven't played a Conde, or know much about his guitars.

Even if it were an Estudio, don't presume all Estudio or equivalent guitars are inferior. Some may be, but I've played a few that have been more than capable of professional performance. I have a Reyes at least without opening every case to check what I have which is a killer guitar. For less than £500 you're doing ok.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2024 15:39:40

orsonw

Posts: 1995
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

That’s the one. I thought a studio guitar was an unsigned undated guitar built by an apprentice. Am I wrong then?

Some information here:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=303770&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#303770

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2024 15:44:11

Ricardo

Posts: 15152
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Firefrets)

quote:

I'm far from being an expert on the history of the Spanish guitar, but I think your guitar was likely built in the Conde workshop. I can only comment on guitars I've played, and I haven't played a Conde, or know much about his guitars.

Anything that is not a “concert” guitar is considered a low end “estudio”, simply put. Meaning a RELATIVELY cheap student guitar. They can not be produced economically in a workshop so they come in from a Valencia “mass production factory”, then the labels are stuck in to be sold from one of several outlets. That is “Conde” and most Madrid name guitars, in a nutshell. In many cases even “Concert” models have been called into question. The painful reality is that there are many examples of mass produced factory assembled instruments from pre-made parts that out perform “Concert” instruments. It is a racket. What we watch out for is predators preying on the confusion….even a good factory Estudio that outperforms Reyes (yes that is not an exaggeration they are out there), should not be sold for $4-5k.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2024 18:18:40

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to orsonw)

Thanks Orson, yes I had seen that, it was very useful! Cheers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2024 18:29:53

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Firefrets)

quote:

I'm far from being an expert on the history of the Spanish guitar, but I think your guitar was likely built in the Conde workshop. I can only comment on guitars I've played, and I haven't played a Conde, or know much about his guitars.

Even if it were an Estudio, don't presume all Estudio or equivalent guitars are inferior. Some may be, but I've played a few that have been more than capable of professional performance. I have a Reyes at least without opening every case to check what I have which is a killer guitar. For less than £500 you're doing ok.

Well I have put new Gotoh tuners on (which look too bling but they are very nice, the original tuners were nasty and did not work well). I took the bridge bone to as low as possible. Put some EJ45s on. Guess what, it sounds beautiful, very flamenco! To my ears at least. It's dryer than my Ariza, although I have carbon trebles on that. It has a different voice. It's quite loud too. The action is a lot better now and much more playable.

I can't wait to get it back after the board and frets are sorted. I love it. This guitar will give me much joy.

These guitars might be considered by some to be inferior to the media luna Condes, but I already love it, and I consider it a piece of history that I am lucky to have.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 24 2024 18:37:30

Echi

Posts: 1157
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

Those green label Pozuelo guitars are quality guitars, don’t be fooled. The green label Conde with the Esteso headstock are soundwise identical to the so called concert model and made in the same workshop in Madrid. They are not outsourced.
Not by chance they are quite sought after and quite expensive in the 2nd hand market.

Reckon they are the true beginning of the Conde brothers fortune as in 59 they hired more people and boosted their business. That label was used from 1959 to 1964.

I once bought one of them for few bucks as they mispelled the name in “Estaso”: it was a better sounding guitar than my concert ‘64 Sobrinos the Esteso.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2024 15:52:13

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Echi)

Echi, thank you, this is lovely to know. The seller said he thought it was 70s. So it's likely to be 60s, could even be my birth year of 64.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 25 2024 17:06:04

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

Update on the original tuners, I took them apart and have given them a damn good clean, and ordered some fishing reel oil for lubrication. They look nice now. Although they are a bit stiff and clunky (hopefully the oil will help a little) I want the originals on. I'll sell the Gotohs.

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Estar sano. Más guitarra.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2024 20:57:48

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

Ok, the guitar is now with the wonderful Stephen Frith.

He will plane the board toward the nut end to reduce the relief and the angle. Aiming for an action of low E 2.7mm to high E 2.5.

The guitar is solid and the neck is good.

Should be ready next weekend.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2024 14:24:33

Echi

Posts: 1157
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

Any picture by chance?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2024 17:33:33

rombsix

Posts: 7899
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

quote:

Should be ready next weekend.

I want high-quality images, 4K video, and solid audio quality.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2024 18:35:08

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to rombsix)

Can’t even post a medium jpeg on here at the moment 😅

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2024 19:04:06

rombsix

Posts: 7899
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

quote:

Can’t even post a medium jpeg on here at the moment 😅

Feeble pretexts...

Use DropBox

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2024 2:13:19

silddx

Posts: 728
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to rombsix)

How do I embed a dropbox photo so it's visible in my post? Embeding the link doesn't work.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2024 10:03:15

rombsix

Posts: 7899
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)

quote:

How do I embed a dropbox photo so it's visible in my post? Embeding the link doesn't work.

Just include the link. It won't embed. We'll see it on your Drop Box.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2024 11:17:07

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