Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvir, Philip John Lee and Craig Eros who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





new build for 68' Conde style flamenco   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2 3 4 5    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

new build for 68' Conde style flamenco 

New build for 68' Conde style?

I'm thinking about building a replica of a 1968 Sobrinos de Esteso flamenco guitar with East Indian rosewood sides and back, spruce top this coming January 2020.

I'll try to provide pictures with the build, as best I can, with explanations as I go, for measurements and such.

Is there any interest in this project or is there another master builders style (flamenco) of interest?

The Esteso plan, I drew, comes from Ramon's guitar, (Paco Lucia's brother), as the original owner.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2019 19:50:06
 
eccullen

 

Posts: 90
Joined: Aug. 14 2007
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I think it would be a wonderful project.
I have a '67 sobrinhos blanca that is a sweet guitar. A favorite.
And a close friend has a 67 sobrinhos negra that is similarly terrific.
For me, IMHO, these have a sort of archetypal feel and sound, embody what I find attractive in flamenco guitars...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2019 20:35:32
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2952
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I would love to see that, Tom!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2019 21:06:28
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 547
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Definitely interested to see, would also love to see someone really delve into the Gerundino and Barba styles. There's something about them that's very unique and you just don't find in many other guitars. They have a very deep soul for lack of a better term.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2019 21:30:01
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to tri7/5

So far it looks like the votes for Conde have it.

Are there any more votes out there for a particular plan that I have in my shop"

The Conde seems to be the most viable since I have most of the parts for this one.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2019 13:58:18
 
RobF

Posts: 1118
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

So far it looks like the votes for Conde have it.


Lol. Tom, you got two votes for, out of a grand total of four votes. It’s not even a clear majority, lol!

But, to break the tie...you can put me down for the Conde, too. That it was Paco’s brother’s guitar makes it pretty compelling. Although Barba and Gerundino are also both very interesting.

Out of curiosity, what other plans do you have kicking around? Knowing that might cause a vote switch.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2019 16:33:35
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to RobF

quote:

Out of curiosity, what other plans do you have kicking around? Knowing that might cause a vote switch.


Ramirez 1958, Gerundino 1969, and a few others I can't remember but no molds to work with, without having to build additional molds.

Oh yeah! A Bernabe' flamenco but no mold. I got rid of most of my working parts to clean up my shop.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2019 19:30:44
 
ernandez R

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Tom,
Looking forward to your '68 Esteso build.

Would it be posable for you to share a simple screen shot of the plan. I am assuming this is available via GAL ?

Idea: how about a video where you point out the key and differentiating details, say compared to your last build the '87 Reyes, of this build while pointing to the areas of the drawing. You could also point out the problematic sections us novice builders need to be aware of.

Last question: what was it about playing this particular '68 Esteso that you found worth making the drawing and building?

Ha, one more: have you built this one before?

Thank you for your time and sharing,

HR
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2019 20:50:32
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

Last question: what was it about playing this particular '68 Esteso that you found worth making the drawing and building?

Ha, one more: have you built this one before?


OK, it looks like the Conde has it. I have built about 5 replicas of this model with various detours but I'll build this one as close to the original as possible, perhaps with slight adjustments that I will point out, that hopefully, will make it work better.

I have not yet submitted a drawing to the GAL for sale.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2019 23:22:43
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Here are 4 rosettes and head design that need a vote, which rosette do you choose and is the head design OK? The head design is an earlier Conde style but it will have classical tuning machines I have on order.





Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 21 2019 18:53:03
 
RobF

Posts: 1118
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

For rosette, second from the top. The one on the bottom is nice, too, but Andy just did one like that and did a better job of it (at least in my opinion). Top one’s OK for a clean uncluttered look, but the one with the roses is so ubiquitous that it’s becoming a cliché.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 21 2019 19:10:07
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to RobF

For rosette, second from the top. The one on the bottom is nice, too, but Andy just did one like that and did a better job of it .........



Yes Andy's was very nice, I liked it a lot. FYI My Santos style came from a 1933 Santos blanca. And if there are no more votes, I'll use the second from the top, a 1950's Marcelo Barbero style.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 21 2019 22:03:43
 
eccullen

 

Posts: 90
Joined: Aug. 14 2007
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Agree: second from top

I prefer this headstock:
https://images.app.goo.gl/qxrB8nUg6VtfMWWv6
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 21 2019 22:35:07
 
RobF

Posts: 1118
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I like the idea of the second from the top in part because it works well with the head you drew and I like Barbero’s colourful style.

If you decide to go with the traditional Esteso head then the bottom (or top) rosette might be a better fit for for that one. Just a thought.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 21 2019 23:18:35
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to RobF

quote:

I like the idea of the second from the top in part because it works well with the head you drew and I like Barbero’s colorful style.


OK, if there is no more vote, I'll go with the Barbero rosette.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2019 0:16:55
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to eccullen

quote:

I prefer this headstock:
https://images.app.goo.gl/qxrB8nUg6VtfMWWv6


Although Esteso used this pattern, this is very close to quite a few other designs; including my own, of earlier models that I built.

I wanted to give some difference yet simulate the Esteso ideal.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2019 3:59:42
 
Echi

 

Posts: 939
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

My 2 cents: If I was in you I’d buy a copy of a Conde Rosette in Germany. Your guitar will be at the high segment of the market and I for one would expect the right Rosette in a copy like that.
I have a ‘64 Conde and very happy with it. I ask myself if the golden age of Conde isn’t ten years after though.
Each one may have his favourite periods, I understand, but IMHO the Conde guitars used by Paco and many others after him set a new standard, different from anything before.
For the headstock I’d go for the media luna Shape as it is archetypal for Conde and much more representative than the “Cathedral” shape you opted for or the old Esteso (which btw was a standard of many luthiers at the beginning of the century).
The shape you took was used just for ten guitars, one of them gifted to El Niño Ricardo, but the media luna design overtook it and ended up being one of the more successful of the industry.
Again, just my 2 cents.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2019 10:20:34
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Echi

quote:

The shape you took was used just for ten guitars, one of them gifted to El Niño Ricardo, but the media luna design overtook it and ended up being one of the more successful of the industry.
Again, just my 2 cents.


There ya go! However, the media luna is too close to home in this present day, and Nino Ricardo is one of my favorite guitars of the 50's which, BTW is very close to this 68' guitar plan I have.

How do I know this? Well, I just about nailed it with this pattern but went too far on one of my 68' builds and had to replace the top.

The basic difference from the 55 and 68 was the box and scale size but the brace formation seemed to be very close to the 55' as far as tone/voicing.

And if you want to order a rosette from Germany and send it to me, I'll be happy to consider it for this build

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2019 14:30:11
 
RobF

Posts: 1118
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

...the media luna is too close to home in this present day,

Agreed. The two brothers are still very actively involved in their own branches of the family business and Filipe Conde Crespo, at least, is turning into a capable and accomplished builder in his own right. Better to leave the family trademarks to the rightful heirs.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2019 17:23:33
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to RobF

I found this You Tube demo of the 68 Conde but with a translation of bracing that I will change back to the original fan braces.



_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2019 17:26:51
 
etta

 

Posts: 314
Joined: Jan. 20 2010
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I have played a dozen or more Condes from the early 70's to 2000 plus. They were all heavy and unresponsive. I even owned one for a very short while (ordered and returned). I suppose the "Sobrinos" must be entirely different.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2019 17:39:44
 
Echi

 

Posts: 939
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Matter of tastes of course, either you hate it or love it. I used to be in the first category for a decade myself (and for a reason).
In the case of Conde for sure you have a lot of variety and must know what to look for.
Paco and many others can.’the be all wrong though.
Tom I understand your point about the the media luna.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 23 2019 22:33:25
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Echi

Here is the 1968 Conde style but with a cross over build for Carlos, which will change back to the original brace pattern........

One of Carlos's friends, a good flamenco guitarist, put this through the mill and it sounded very flamenco, even with the cross over style.

Also, I made my head design on it, if this is your preference.




_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2019 3:01:08
 
RobF

Posts: 1118
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

OK, I’m completely changing my vote here, lol, in part because I missed you saying it was going to be an EIR guitar and I was assuming it would be Cypress. Also, I hadn’t seen your own head design until you posted the last video.

Now I think, if it’s EIR use rosette #1 and your own head design. Cypress, I would choose Rosette #2 with the Niño Ricardo head.

Which brings me to the question...why not do it in Cypress? If I lived in the US and lack of material was the reason I’d send you a set. But why not go full trad?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2019 10:33:02
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to RobF

quote:


Which brings me to the question...why not do it in Cypress? If I lived in the US and lack of material was the reason I’d send you a set. But why not go full trad?



The reason I don't use cypress is because I have a hard time selling it as a project instrument, if I don't have a special order. For me, the cypress is a hard sell at my prices.

With the EIR it would be appealing to a classical player. I'll have to rethink this one.

Heck! If I'm going to take time this coming year to make the guitar, maybe I'll just make a rosette to be more in line with the original, closer to Nino Ricardo's guitar, with his head design and cypress sides and back with a spruce top.......what say you guys?

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2019 14:27:51
 
RobF

Posts: 1118
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

maybe I'll just make a rosette to be more in line with the original, closer to Nino Ricardo's guitar, with his head design and cypress sides and back with a spruce top...

I think it’s a great idea.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2019 14:34:18
 
JasonM

Posts: 1701
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I was wondering why you haven’t built with cypress in a while. These classical snobs need to get over it!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2019 15:10:35
 
Echi

 

Posts: 939
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I too agree with you last sentence.
I would go for a media luna headstock shape if it weren’t patented; at the end of the day it’s a once off tribute project. Anyway the Cathedral shape is well thought too.

I’m a little surprised that all your bracing patterns are with 7 + 2 closing bars.
My 81 Conde has the same pattern while my 64 Conde is again with 7 braces but without closing bars.
Here in the foro we spoke also about the modified Barbero pattern (5+2) Faustino used in those years.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2019 15:16:05
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to RobF

OK, this is going to have to be a collectable with 50 year old actual Granada cypress and a 1980's Nagavary Spruce top; just one left in my shop files. And a rosette that comes close to Nino Ricardo's style, with his head design.

It'll be as near a bench copy as I can make it but don't expect miracles.

And any well healed member of this list who wants to contribute a set of "mechanical flamenco pegs" for the head, I'll be happy to use them for this build.

The guitar should be available sometime in the coming year 2020.

Also, I'm open to look at any available (for sale) factory rosettes, that members might like for me to use for this tedious project.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2019 15:22:28
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Echi

quote:


I’m a little surprised that all your bracing patterns are with 7 + 2 closing bars.
My 81 Conde has the same pattern while my 64 Conde is again with 7 braces but without closing bars.


You got me on this one as all I've seen with the open fan bracing is the Conde Hermanos label as compared to the Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso label. All of the Esteso labels, at that time, have had closed bars that I know of.

The Conde labels were built in town, mainly by apprentices, and the Esteso mainly by Faustino, etc. in another location, I think.

In 1965, I could have bought a Conde for about 120 dollars to where an Esteso would sell for $350 US. I was offered these prices while in Madrid, at the time.

However, I wound up buying a first class Ramirez flamenco for $200 US and sold it for $650 when I returned home. This was a discount off the regular retail of $900.00 at that time in Dallas Texas.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 24 2019 15:42:35
Page:   [1] 2 3 4 5    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2 3 4 5    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.078125 secs.