RE: new build for 68'Conde style flamenco

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RE: new build for 68' Conde style flamenco

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Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I've noticed that sometimes Paco Lucia would change out his third string with a black string to help blend the treble strings together, perhaps to make things flow more evenly.

Actually he only did that with this guitar, and the exact opposite...he used black or red 1st and 2nd string, and clear one on the third. I suspect he was mixing Savarez with la Bella brand.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2020 2:37:37

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Actually he only did that with this guitar, and the exact opposite...he used black or red 1st and 2nd string, and clear one on the third. I suspect he was mixing Savarez with la Bella brand.

Thank you for your observation but the point I was trying to make was that Paco was trying to even out what may have been anomalies of uneven sound, by using certain added string brands to fix the problem.

My fine tuning techniques are basically used to try and overcome these problems by using the full string brand, with balancing both treble and bass together.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 7 2020 16:56:03

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Paco was trying to even out what may have been anomalies of uneven sound

Paco said in an interview on video that the difference between a classical guitarist and a flamenco guitarist is that the classical is concerned with the quality of the tone, whereas he was concerned with the rhythm. He said he plays notes "sucio" [dirty], so I doubt that he was doing what you suggested. I think he probably broke individual strings at various times and threw on whatever he had on hand.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2020 4:33:43

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

by using the full string brand,

Which brand and set?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2020 15:19:23

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

I think he probably broke individual strings at various times and threw on whatever he had on hand.

He said in interview as some point he used Savarez red on the basses and Labella trebles. In the 80s he switched to Luthier. I assume he got a bad G string in the labella set and then got used to the mix. For sure he was doing it deliberately as we see several concerts where he used this combo on that guitar from 1977 or so until it was stolen (1980). When he started using the substitute guitar(s) he was using clear trebles.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2020 15:23:53

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

When he started using the substitute guitar(s) he was using clear trebles.

You guys can think what you want. This is a chat list that encourages different opinions.

Personally, my experiences are different but I have no argument with any player or builder who disagrees with my ideals, just share what I know about tone and performance, as a builder and player.

I use D'Addario J46 regular hard tension classical and fine tune guitars for either classical or flamenco tuning, sometimes for cross over.

Dan Zeff recently sold one of my Miguel Rodriguez style classical guitars and the player asked me what strings I used with the build, due to the reasoning that he felt the guitar was not performing as good as it should.

He switched to D'Addario and it eventually came back into its tone mode. And the last I heard was that he was very happy with it.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 8 2020 19:44:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I use D'Addario J46 regular hard tension classical and fine tune guitars for either classical or flamenco tuning, sometimes for cross over.

Cool. I usually think of the j45 normal tension as the “standard” baseline set. Is there any reason you prefer the hard tension instead?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2020 4:26:04

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

I am too for D'addario Ej46 regular: after many trials I got to the conclusion they have a better performance all in all.
They are good value and a good standard for comparisons between different guitars (they fit well guitars with different 'pulsacion').
Tension is not that much more than Ej45 at the end of the day...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2020 13:05:15

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Cool. I usually think of the j45 normal tension as the “standard” baseline set. Is there any reason you prefer the hard tension instead?

I eventually settled on EJ45s except for one guitar which worked better on Corum Alliance had tension. I have never considered trying low tension strings but I recently found this video extolling their virtues.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2020 14:06:45

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

I have a lot of consideration and esteem for Luciano but I think in this case he said something at least controversial.
I don’t believe high tension stings will lead to bend your guitar neck nor to damage the top. This may be the case just with extremely light or historical instruments.
I suppose it’s mostly about personal taste and the tension you like under your fingers.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2020 14:38:55

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Cool. I usually think of the j45 normal tension as the “standard” baseline set. Is there any reason you prefer the hard tension instead?

I over build my guitars a little and then re-leave them to some extent. I get a brighter effect by polishing certain areas on the fan bracing. Also bring down certain tone value to keep the trebles in line to keep them from getting too bright.

All this does is tweak things a little to maintain tone and articulation to give it a vowel tone, to try and avoid just string noise.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2020 14:42:08

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to RobJe)

This player gives a good explanation about his guitar. But not all guitars are the same.

He has found a way to make his guitar sound better and play easier but not all guitars will respond the same.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2020 15:18:47

JasonM

Posts: 2054
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I was kind of surprised to hear Luciano’s likes lower tension, he always has a great sound and attack. I heard that Jason McGuire also likes low tension - but take that with a grain of salt. As hard as he plays...

Tom, that’s interesting to know you use EJ46. Of course you also go thinner on your tops too, right? 2 mm or so..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2020 23:11:31

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to JasonM)

After years of using Savarez "red cards" on the Arcangel Fernandez blanca, I decided to try the lower tension "white cards." (Actually kind of off-white cards.)

With the red cards the fan braces had "printed" on the top, especially behind the bridge.

To my surprise, the "printing" disappeared with the lower tension strings. I don't hear any decrease in loudness, but I haven't done loudness measurements before and after. I would say tone is slightly warmer.

Left hand is a little bit easier, I have needed to lighten up a little on right hand.

Overall a percetible change, but not night and day. For me the most noticeable change is the need to lighten up a little on the right hand to produce a good tone.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2020 0:08:24

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

Of course you also go thinner on your tops too, right? 2 mm or so..

It all depends on the top's timber/strength.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2020 3:17:24

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

Richard, it looks like your Arcangel is made with very thin top reinforced with a strong bracing underneath.
In this case, stronger strings keep the membrane (the top) in constant tension, while low string will have it more relaxed.
I cannot say what's best though.
I had an interesting talk with a luthier famous for his repair works on original Torres guitars; as you know these guitars are very lightly made, and originally thought for gut strings (lower tension than nylon).
Yet he told me that many concert players purposely use medium to high tension strings on Torres (or Torres copies) during their public exhibitions to have the guitar singing; it seems like the guitar gives its best with that. The experiments of Dammann seem to confirm it.

Coming back to the topic: strings are part of a system and work together with the action of the guitar and the top resilience ...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2020 9:51:24

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Echi)

quote:

original Torres guitars; as you know these guitars are very lightly made, and originally thought for gut strings (lower tension than nylon)

I thought that this was a popular misconception. For a given length and thickness of string, higher density = more tension required to achieve the desired frequency. Gut is more dense than rectified nylon.

Any thoughts on this?

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 10 2020 16:02:08

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

Gut is much more stretchable than nylon so the final diameter of the string (once tuned) is smaller than the equivalent nylon string and so the tension.
Mimmo Peruffo (the chemist and scholar who founded Aquila Corde) wrote about it but I cannot find too much in English.

The point is that a Torres kind of guitar is definitely lighter than today’s standards. Common sense would suggest low tension strings would make it work best while I reported the opposite experience told by some concert players.
EDIT:
1. Dammann - subsequent his studies on Torres - purposely reckon the top thickness to have it taking a pronounced S shape under the tension of the strings.
2. Here is a nice study about string tension:
http://ricerche.aquilacorde.com/wp-content/uploads/equal.pdf

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2020 0:20:58

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Echi)

Thanks for the reference - fascinating stuff. It also led me to consider how string diameter, friction and tension all contribute to the 'feel' when playing.

quote:

Common sense would suggest low tension strings would make it work best

I am not sure why you say this. The majority of Torres guitars fall into the shorter 645mm-650mm scale range. The shorter the the scale length the thicker (ie higher tension) the strings need to be to give normal playing feel.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2020 15:02:53

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

am not sure why you say this. The majority of Torres guitars fall into the shorter 645mm-650mm scale range. The shorter the the scale length the thicker (ie higher tension) the strings need to be to give normal playing feel.

I think it was clear that those guitars were not to be compared to “normal” playing feel guitars of today because they used gut strings exclusively back then. That WAS normal, and thusly, once you guys straighten out the fact that gut is looser or not at pitch, the lighter tension nylon version would be the correct fit for those instruments vs the more robust designed guitars today. In all honesty, you can still get gut strings no? That is what Torres guitars should be fitted with period, if nothing more than authenticity.

And in the end scale length doesn’t matter after ACTION and set up anyway. Every guitar feels “easier” with lighter tension strings, and every guitar sounds “louder” with harder tension Basses. The issue becomes about which set makes the guitar sound OR feel better. Each guitar has a different set up usually so it depends. Easy action set up and light tension is toneless rubber bands. High stiff action and hard tension strings make a guitar feel like driving a truck.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 11 2020 16:23:32

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

To all luthiers who are interested, I got together with Adam Buchwald at Allied Lutherie ...

Allied Lutherie
1891 WILLISTON RD
SUITE 19
S. BURLINGTON VT 05403
Adam@alliedlutherie.com
http://www.alliedlutherie.com
802-489-5615
917-273-1497 (cell)

And he has made a bridge with his CNC that perfectly fits my Miguel Rodriguez and Manuel Reyes guitar plans. You can also easily shorten the bridge arms for a Conde style guitar or my Arcangel Fernandez plan.

The bridges come without a tie block design so that you can put your own. This is the best bridge I've seen for the retail market. I will certainly use it for my guitars. I recommend it without reservation.

Attachment (3)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 17 2020 14:31:30

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Attachment (3)

The attachment in previous post is three bridge pictures that give you an idea for professional quality.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2020 15:11:20

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I've noticed that sometimes Paco Lucia would change out his third string with a black string to help blend the treble strings together, perhaps to make things flow more evenly.

Actually here was a unique time he did exactly as you described. I haven’t ever seen him do this exact combo other than this video, however I stand corrected about it if it was this you referred to:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 21 2020 20:47:35

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Ricardo)

That's OK Ricardo, no problem. 58 years in this business has shown me a lot of things, probably a lot that I have forgotten.

Obviously, Paco has used a black treble on both rosewood and cypress guitars. It could be that he liked the feel of it

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 22 2020 1:48:17

Tom Blackshear

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2020 14:56:46

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

https://iflamencos.com/estrella-morente-por-solea

Juan Habichuella playing solea has two black trebles.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2020 15:10:11

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Hello again,

Here is where I am, at this moment, with the guitar build.

I've already sold the bridges I ordered and have the rest coming soon.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2020 23:08:33

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Still trying to finish the Conde style flamenco guitar. But in the meantime a fellow contacted me about providing information to the Sanchis brothers to build him a Miguel Rodriguez style classical guitar.

He knows their family well and desires to have them build a guitar out of their exquisite rosewood. They have built 3 or 4 guitars with my plan and relate back that this style is the best classical they have built. (They are basically flamenco builders).

Coming from a 100 year family dynasty, I consider this a real compliment. It lets me know my work with the plans was not in vain.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2021 15:04:32

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Came across this 1984 Blackshear flamenco that has been to war, like many other earlier models that were less expensive. Raising prices over the years has actually kept my guitars in better shape

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2021 17:27:51

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: new build for 68' Conde style fl... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Sometimes a lot of reminiscing goes on with this chat list. I'm guilty of it too. After 58 years in this profession, I've come to my own conclusion that much of the ancient ways of building are better kept rather than put aside.

A builder who takes time with his/her project has time to get immersed with their art to where they become one, and the personality of the builder takes root in the soul of the instrument. The Spanish term is propio sello, personal stamp.

Quite frankly, there are no two guitars perfectly alike. We all strive to build each guitar to its maximum level of performance with its basic construct. But nevertheless, each carefully constructed instrument will have its value signified by the general character of its master builder. So what goes into the build is what comes out in its tonal value, and this is translated further with how it is treated during the aging process.

One guitar I find very interesting in its tonal value is by the builder Erez Perelman. I found this You Tube presentation played by a young man with very interesting bulerias togue.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2021 15:21:15