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RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamenco guitars   You are logged in as Guest
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JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to ernandez R

I picked up an ignition file at a Sears this year. Both are becoming scarce. The file really comes in handy. Can’t have too many files. That little Lee Valley plane looks perfect. I find it frustrating to adjust the little brass violin planes. Tap tap too far lol.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 4 2020 23:21:14
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

That little Lee Valley plane looks perfect.


Grab the miniature shoulder plane, too. You won’t regret it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 4 2020 23:23:42
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

A few photos of my fingerplane. Nothing fancy.

And sorry Mango for hijacking your build thread ;)

HR







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Attachment (3)

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2020 3:44:44
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to ernandez R

Welp, it looks like I fell for the troll and took the bait.

Hook. Line. and Sinker.

Out of respect for Mango I’m going to follow El Burdo’s suggestion and remove most of my original response. But I’ll leave this thought from my original post....

....almost all of the guitar makers who frequent these forums have built their own shops and invent and whip together jigs and tools at the drop of a hat in the normal course of the day. There’s room for everything in this craft, and for everyone. The tool doesn’t make the maker, and I’ll leave it at that to be interpreted in whatever way anyone chooses.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2020 14:10:01
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2923
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

Music paper sound hole reinforcement... love it. Reminds me of the story of how Santos Hernandez used a sheet of Celedonio Romero's discarded notation paper to repair an old Antonio de Torres. Pepe Romero later bought the Torres and discovered the paper inside.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2020 16:59:44
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

quote:

Beyond that, entering into or initiating discussions here on the Foro and then providing snide editorial references to these discussions on other forums is bad form, in my opinion, and I don’t see the value in it. It can lead to people being played off each other and, for that reason, I’d prefer not to engage with you any further while you continue down that path.


Surely this is better on a PM? I don't know the other forum and I can't see what your antagonist has said that has bothered you. So why so public?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2020 17:38:56
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to El Burdo

You’re right. In the interest of keeping the peace, I took down my original response.

I’m truly upset about what’s happened and there’s now some members that I’ll be avoiding from this point forward. Hopefully that will be enough.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2020 17:55:44
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper

Andy,

I might have got the idea after reading about that story, but then again I've seen music paper inside many guitars and was intrigued when I read that Stradivarious had used paper, made from rags back then, as bindings on his builds. It was a simple solution and I've been working on that Pentenera and had printed out a few copies. Had a copy out in the shop so I could work on it with my shop guitar, my ugly #2, and it was sacrificed as you can see. This series of parlor guitars is based loosely on the 1863 Torres featured in Vintage Gutair written up by Brune I think. I chickened out and added sound bars though...

Looks like I took a little too much cough syrup last night, slept in, and missed the troll fight. I like a healthy exchange keyboard battle but sounds like it got ugly. That's too bad...

Lot of strong creative minds here and luthiery in general. I prefer to listen, keep my opinions to myself, and interject when it feels like I'm adding value like making a quick finger plane or describing a thought process involving a borouque cutout and music paper, or pondering how strong minds can get along, have a healthy fight, brush off the dust feathers and blood, poor a drink, then salute each other because we still can in this age of dissension.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 6 2020 21:52:15
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to RobF

I’m confused But I’ve got your back, Rob. I enjoy reading your post and have learned a lot of great info from you!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2020 0:06:32
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

Thanks man. No pasa nada.

It’s been a mess of a day. I’m going to go to bed early, set the alarm for just before dawn and get up, make a hot cup of coffee, and sit and watch the sun rise. Good way to reset and start fresh.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2020 1:28:50
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

Ditto Jason, here too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 7 2020 13:09:47
 
mango

Posts: 133
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

Today I assembled the body! Very exciting moment... When there was just the top glued to the sides and the neck, I felt the top to be too stiff like not vibrating enough somehow. So I lowered some of the bracings a bit more until it felt better ;-) ... now when I tap on the assembled body, I hear a G# as main body resonance. It feels responsive but maybe a bit high. Will that tap tone even go up when the bridge is glued on? Or can that be dropped by scraping the edges of the top?

I hope all you guys stay healthy!





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2020 22:44:15
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2923
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

The box looks excellent. Did you use tentellones to attach the top to the sides? If so the tap tone right now will probably be garbage, simply because there are likely to be small gaps around the edge (that will be cut away for the bindings of course). For some reason that completely deadens the tap tone. It will deepen and become much more resonant when you install the bindings. Adding the bridge will also likely lower it a bit because you're adding mass to the center/monopole.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2020 0:03:53
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

Mango,

Exciting times glueing the top and bottom on, it's almost like she is a guitar at this point and becomes alive. Like Prometheus bringing fire to the clay people or perhaps Dr Frankenstine making life from bits and pieces, only we are making this wooden creature with strings, some might say only a tool, but after hours of shaping with our hands, binding here and there into shapes almost human, who could deny there is life once strung up and given voice.

I had to laugh once my mind wondered down this road, that we are like gods creating our own creatures, only I began to tally the faults and missteps in this journey we call luthery. There is my great experiment I keep hanging in the shop and dare drag outside in the snowy or sunny, riverside beach or bonfire; my ugly monster with six string who I would name Hubris if said name was less ugly, Segundo if she was less feminine. And while I laugh again at Sr. Torres for naming his... who is it we worship now?

I too found myself fiddling with the top before glueing on the back. At some point you have to believe in yourself and the magic of luthiery and all who have gone before who said, this is how it should be. I was told more then a few times that one should stick exactly to a plan but I couldn't even begin, my mind is not wired so, and more then anything, a desire to walk a solitary path, to carve against the grain, to shape almost too thin, dare the wood explode for a tone explosive; is this not what makes us human, or rather super human, pulls us above the mundane with six strings?

You are getting close. I feared this point when I was building my fourth, so much time and care invested and one mistake could send it all into the wood stove. I would get trapped: how did I do that last time or is this going to be good enough? I would stop, brew up a cup of tea to get over myself then race through the next step so excited nearing the finish.

It's early am, I've been sick for weeks but I was in the shop yesterday for half a day; my list said, clean the shop. I too have a top and bottom ready to glue; waiting patiently for me to bring alive...


HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2020 15:33:07
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12668
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

It was a simple solution and I've been working on that Pentenera and had printed out a few copies. Had a copy out in the shop so I could work on it with my shop guitar, my ugly #2, and it was sacrificed as you can see


Oh no. You know that’s bad luck right? No offense but I wouldn’t touch that guitar!

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2020 16:34:50
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

It was a simple solution and I've been working on that Pentenera and had printed out a few copies. Had a copy out in the shop so I could work on it with my shop guitar, my ugly #2, and it was sacrificed as you can see


Oh no. You know that’s bad luck right? No offense but I wouldn’t touch that guitar!


It's the dark magic, a song form conjuring up fear, late night gipsy dancing around the fire flickerings, sharp blades and wine gone bad in the barrel, thick in men's minds like pooling blood under the slaughtering tree; the taste of fear in the mouth of mothers wondering when the next meal comes, the guitar with a broken treble string thrumming along regardless: five strings, five fingers inverted as the dark lords mark making mad music, the anti tempo of each compleat compas. Pentaneras!

Years ago I went to a airplane pilot and mechanic school in Tulsa Oklahoma started in the early 1920's . It's mascot was a black cat over the number thirteen. There was a lot of superstition associated with Avaition back in the day and this was their way to get the new pilots and mechanics over being afraid of nonsense and trust the science.

Oh you would play, you know it, you can't overcome the power inside yourself to master each instrument, it's in your soul. And I know a guitar is just one tool in the box, that gilded or rusty, you and countless like you would make her into your own. And I would relish that moment, when artist or neophyte makes those bits of wood I have conjured into holding six strings in tension release music I've never imagined. So ether pious or Pentaneras play, I dare you.


HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2020 19:06:58
 
mango

Posts: 133
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

I too found myself fiddling with the top before glueing on the back. At some point you have to believe in yourself and the magic of luthiery


Yes, now I understand better the magic aspects of it. Instead of following the plan just fiddling around until it feels right... haha.

Get well soon and show us your new creature ;-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2020 23:59:51
 
mango

Posts: 133
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to Andy Culpepper

quote:

Did you use tentellones to attach the top to the sides?


No I did it with linings made of mahogany...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2020 0:03:25
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

You’re doing good work, Mango. Nice and clean.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2020 3:37:52
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

Mango,
Nice, vary nice!

I took a more utilitarian path when assembling my first; racing to put the strings on but all the time trimming, scraping, and sanding where no eye will ever see; thinking to myself I wanted it to look and feel like she was assembled by someone with love. I laugh whenever I look inside her but smile while playing her.

The linings, were they glued up to shape as strips? Thinking you mentioned so upthread? Why Mahogany?

I've been playing with thin crimped linings a la Torres but have yet to make an acceptable product so just back kerfing the 3/32" thin lineings. They need to be thin so as not to distort the 1mm sides ( ok mine are only 1.4mm but getting there) . I know contrary to your building style but I aiming for sub 1000gm guitars strung up: my #4 is 967gm


HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2020 4:38:04
 
mango

Posts: 133
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

The linings, were they glued up to shape as strips? Thinking you mentioned so upthread? Why Mahogany?


Yes, they are made of laminated strips of mahogany, glued into shape with a mold. I just did this as described in the Book... it worked pretty well so far, they make a pretty strong structure and fit very well. Bogdanovich says that linings sound better than tentalones... but I cannot compare. My favourite Flamenco guitar (at least from those I own) is made with tentalones. Well see ;-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2020 16:50:09
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

Looking really nice. You definitely have the aptitude for detail. How did you go about rounding over the edge of the lining? I rounded mine over on the router table with a round over bit after the laminations were glued and bent. I’m not sure if I like this method or not it was a bit tricky.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2020 22:38:07
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2188
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to mango

quote:

Bogdanovich says that linings sound better than tentalones... but I cannot compare. My favorite Flamenco guitar (at least from those I own) is made with tentalones. Well see ;-)


John is correct, as I have been using the solid linings since 1975, taken from the idea of 1970's Miguel Rodriguez guitars.

I've built both styles but have found that the solid lining helps force the sound back into the top instead of absorbing the sound into the sides. It generally creates a little higher frequency in the sound which clarifies the tone.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2020 19:09:44
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

But doesn’t that then lead to more sustain? That’s the argument I’ve heard against using solid linings in a flamenco - you want that decay. Not saying I disagree with solid linings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2020 3:32:33
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

The rule seems to be: thin sides, strong linings and viceversa. Santos and Torres were for very thin sides and proportionally stiff linings. There’s a Santos flamenco at Solera with solid linings.
Jason is not wrong for other makers though.
Reyes used to use cypress peones, often quite tight and glued with each other.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2020 8:42:43
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2188
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

But doesn’t that then lead to more sustain? That’s the argument I’ve heard against using solid linings in a flamenco - you want that decay. Not saying I disagree with solid linings.


There are so many ways to judge this idiom, that there is no one way to achieve a proper sound without being challenged by another.

All I know is that the solid lining seems to be superior to the cut lining.

And the decay of notes is about the same, except for a little higher projection in frequency with the solid lining.

However, the actual under-lay sustain of tone depends on the top's fan brace pattern.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2020 15:08:31
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Good info Echi and Tom. I might give solid lining a go although placing tentalones was kinda relaxing!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2020 23:17:49
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2923
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

IMO solid linings serve to add just a tiny bit of extra rigidity to the rim of the top, effectively shrinking the main vibrating area very slightly. If you ran the chladni patterns you could probably see that the node line of the monopole mode (main top resonance) would be just a wee bit tighter in circumference than with spaced out tentellones. Basically, it's like having a slightly smaller guitar, or at least smaller resonating top area. No effect on sustain, but probably a very slight "higher frequency" effect exactly as Tom describes.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2020 1:13:30
 
mango

Posts: 133
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

Thank you for those interesting infos. Actually the sides that I made felt very strong as being laminated and reinforced with those linings... well, we will see. I tried to be on the thin side with the back and the top. Next step are the bindings. I broke two of those ebony strips when I tried to bend them :-/ could repair it more or less... I want to let them continue around the heel cap. What is the best method to cut the channels there. I think my fancy router attachment that I made will not help me there...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2020 10:50:29
 
mango

Posts: 133
Joined: Apr. 2 2019
 

RE: Bogdanovich´s method for flamen... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

How did you go about rounding over the edge of the lining?


I actually just used a round file and did it by hand because I don't have a router table. Worked pretty good...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2020 10:52:20
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