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Ricardo

Posts: 13228
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Escribano

Well, recent hijackings were done by older members to defuse the impending meltdown....with success. Some outside observers simply not aware that was what that was, no big deal really and it's ok to explain it to them too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2012 20:27:33
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Well, recent hijackings were done by older members to defuse the impending meltdown....with success. Some outside observers simply not aware that was what that was, no big deal really and it's ok to explain it to them too.


That is true, because some recent postings were antagonistic and the outcome was better I think that they were headed off in other directions.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2012 20:45:40
 
c

Posts: 320
Joined: Nov. 20 2005
From: manitoba, canada

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to estebanana

Yup..and did you see how close Venus was to the moon yesterday?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2012 23:15:03
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to ralexander

quote:

Juan Martin. Nice to hear the positive comments about him being a great ambassador for flamenco


for his educational/learning stuff, yes, no doubt

but he's also the cause of more arguments and upsets than any other flamenco artist i can think of....

imagine if telling people PDL's mother was Portuguese caused all this trouble?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2012 16:11:27
 
Mark2

Posts: 1687
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

late to the party---Paco vs Juan= Godzilla vs. my 15 year old bichon frise


I love the guy's post-he's wrong about everything.

I've also met J. Martin, and seen him play.

A buddy of mine used to live in Spain and study there. His teacher, commenting about Paco Pena said something like it was embarrassing that the guy could get gigs. I consider Pena a very solid player in his style, but he suffered from what some other expat Spainards did-a style frozen at the time they left the source. Be it by choice or not, it is what it is.

I can only wonder what pros in Spain would have to say about J. Martin, but I think if they were being candid, it would not be flattering.

that he compiled a bunch of traditional material into a method book or three does not remotely put him in the company of the top players, or for that fact, the weaker ones.

This wouldn't be an issue if he was unknown, but since he has a career as a performing artist, it's inevitable that he is compared to others in the field. The comparisons are not to his advantage.

I don't know where he was born but even guys of the era his playing is drawn from leave him far in the rearview mirror in terms of accomplishment and ability IMO.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I was having a discussion on a non-flamenco (but) music related board and got on the topic of Paco with some guy on there. Just thought I'd share this guys comments about Juan Martin vs PdL, since Mr Martin can be a hot topic at times:

quote:

Well, although I'm not a musician



, I know something about flamenco,



and although he also did some pop records with electric instruments backing him (like Paco has done), Juan Martin seems to me to be far more of a flamenco purist.


The purists of flamenco music (or so I've heard) often have a higher regard for Juan than Paco,



even if he is less famous. Even when Juan has experimented with marrying it with other things, like ancient arabic music, or composed lengthy suites of tunes, he has kept the music to a strict flamenco form. To my ears,



even when Paco plays guitar according to a strict flamenco form, the way he uses backing musicians often makes the music not 'feel' like flamenco at all and, therefore, it can sound soulless and the whole point of the music is gone.



Juan has very rarely been guilty of that sin ('Through a Moving Window', recorded 1988, would be his cardinal offence!) and his playing seems to play more attention to the 'storytelling quality' which is fundamental to all forms of flamenco expression, guitar playing, singing etc. etc.

I don't think I underrate Paco.




I have several of his records, including a few old ones, and I think highly of him. My feeling as to why Paco hasn't done as much to expand the horizons of flamenco music as Juan is that Juan not only accepts the idea of flamenco as a way of life, but has studied the culture to such a degree, he seems able to raise flamenco musical expression to new artistic heights.



Witness his Andalucian Suites album of 1990, or even the old Solo Album of 1985...they're like some pure flamenco poetry. Paco may have been the first to popularize rhumbas and Latin American forms in flamenco, but I've yet to hear something from him that has the same level of musical sensitivity to it as what Juan has done on recordings like these. To my ears, Juan has a greater capacity for expression on the guitar, and can play with finesse as well as he can with passion. But, as you say, this is largely a question of likes/dislikes...


Just thought I'd share someone's point of view that is not really a flamenco guitar aficionado or student. I disagree with the guy of course! But no one can deny that Juan Martin has had a strong influence on the listening public.

Ricardo

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2012 17:36:30
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Mark2

sounds like that guy Ricardo quoted was just reading off the program notes from one of his cd's/shows.... that's what bugs me about JM's publicity, as the "listening public" don't know any different and can't tell what's going on they believe the hype. I had a copy of the Andalucian Suites cd and there are timing mistakes, the only flamenco recording I have heard with that kind of timing/rhythm errors, including recordings of live juergas... but yeah, influcence on the general public... and that's why on the whole I feel that JM has
quote:

had a nett negative impact on flamenco
, because he devalues it, and makes people think his mediocrity is "the real thing"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2012 21:14:56
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

as the "listening public" don't know any different and can't tell what's going on they believe the hype. I had a copy of the Andalucian Suites cd and there are timing mistakes, the only flamenco recording I have heard with that kind of timing/rhythm errors, including recordings of live juergas... but yeah, influcence on the general public... and that's why on the whole I feel that JM has

quote:

had a nett negative impact on flamenco

, because he devalues it, and makes people think his mediocrity is "the real thing"

100% agreed! i regret buying his andalusian suite book , i did not know back then, i was still at the very beginning stages

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 0:53:55
 
mcspookster

 

Posts: 11
Joined: Dec. 22 2004
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

because he devalues it, and makes people think his mediocrity is "the real thing"


He only devalues it if an individual allows him to devalue it from their perspective. I doubt many do.

The only people who would think his "mediocrity is the real thing" are those who discovered JM and then stopped there. Again, I doubt many do. Most will go on, discover other flamenco artists and support them - my collection of flamenco cd's and books is an example of this.

I love JM. he's not my favourite player by a long shot, but were it not for him I doubt I would have even heard of everyone else, let alone spent money on their products.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 7:40:33
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

quote:


He only devalues it if an individual allows him to devalue it from their perspective. I doubt many do.


I totally agree and thats why I cant get upset with JM. To me he´s just a musicians doing his show and he has the right to do so just like anyone else.
If someone thinks he´s the best in the world, thats their taste, just like some think Julio Iglesias is the best and so on.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 8:42:35
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mcspookster

quote:

The only people who would think his mediocrity is "the real thing" are those who discovered JM and then stopped there. Again, I doubt many do. Most will go on, discover other flamenco artists and support them


For everyone who was introduced to flamenco by JM and then did go further and discover other artists, that's great, and I'm not saying those people don't exist, because I know there are plenty of you! And yes, I agree, along with the teaching stuff, that's where he is good for flamenco.

But that's not most of his audience, that's probably only a minority. I think most of the people at the shows I've seen are exactly those people who take their one flamenco trip a year to a JM show. Maybe if they got a chance to see someone else for a change it would inspire them to go further...

And a lot of those venues he plays won't take any other flamenco. Friend of mine wanted to bring over some young artists she met in Jerez, contacted local venue, and they said, "oh no, we have JM" And to me, that is also a case where he is not so good for flamenco.

I wasn't introduced to flamenco by JM, so I don't feel obliged to credit him for that. (I wanna put a smiley here but I can't figure out which one.....)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 13:52:26
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

To me he´s just a musicians doing his show and he has the right to do so just like anyone else.


I agree with this too (I'm not trying to get him banned or anything!), and add that so does anyone who has bought his cd's or gone to his shows have the right to an opinion about it, and to discuss it, no?

I liked your post about compas and accompaniment above, and wonder what you think of JM's compas and accompaniment (not his teaching stuff, his actual playing for cante/baile/solo)?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 13:58:46
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

Maybe it's different in the UK because he lives there but where I'm at nobody knows who Juan Martin is except the few people that learned from the book. When I tell random people that I'm learning flamenco their only response is "Oh yeah, I love Paco de Lucia". I suppose that's why Paco can charge $400 for tickets at the Hollywood Bowl and Juan hasn't been here in 30 years. It's gotta be a completely different can of worms out there, you guys make it sound like he's everywhere.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 14:23:40
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Friend of mine wanted to bring over some young artists she met in Jerez, contacted local venue, and they said, "oh no, we have JM" And to me, that is also a case where he is not so good for flamenco.


Thats not JM´s fault. The whole freakin world is made like that. "No, we dont have organic tomatoes or locally freeland grown ones, because we have those from the plastic greenhouses"

You ask me about his compas. etc:
I cant remember. I´ve heard very little JM. He doesnt interest me and I´ve never heard him with a singer or a dancer.

Is he really that big in the UK?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 16:00:00
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Leñador

quote:

where I'm at nobody knows who Juan Martin is..... When I tell random people that I'm learning flamenco their only response is "Oh yeah, I love Paco de Lucia".



i had to laugh at this, 'cos in the UK it's completely the freakin opposite, you tell someone you're into flamenco, and chances are they will say, "oh yeah, i saw JM and it was amaaaaazin!" and they haven't heard of Paco de Lucia (or anyone else)

it's tough..... do i say nothing.... or do i say....

i have unwittingly upset a few people, and often just sort of mumble something "hmmm... glad you enjoyed it...." for a quiet life....

JM is pretty much the only one who goes around the small theatres and arts centres etc. regularly, every year or two.... apart from the group "Jaleo". There are some artists resident in London, some stay, some come and go, some of them are really good, and occasionally they tour or perform other places around the country. I would like to see more like this.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 16:11:47
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Thats not JM´s fault. The whole freakin world is made like that.


good point

quote:

I´ve heard very little JM. He doesnt interest me and I´ve never heard him with a singer or a dancer.


I must have heard at least half a dozen albums, and seen him 3 or 4 times over the years....
I'm very forgiving you know
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 16:16:14
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1859
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mark indigo

Why not bash PdL instead? Many years ago I went to a concert of his in London: a little bit of bulería, then lots of rumba/tango with mediorcre singers. Soooooo boooring. I decided never again. A couple of years ago he gave a free concert here in La Plaza de la Catedral: just the same: excessive volume, buleria then flamenquito with mediocre singers. He really has bad taste in singers: after the good luck with Camaron, he picks Duquende, Potito, La Tana I went off for tapas somewhere else where you could´nt hear the racket I suppose he has to make a living.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 16:23:13
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Morante

quote:

Why not bash PdL instead? ........I suppose he has to make a living.


you've seen PDL twice (or once and a bit), how many times have you seen JM?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 16:41:27
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Morante

quote:

Why not bash PdL instead?


this is bashing?

quote:

Juan Martin. Nice to hear the positive comments about him being a great ambassador for flamenco

for his educational/learning stuff, yes, no doubt

quote:

For everyone who was introduced to flamenco by JM and then did go further and discover other artists, that's great, and I'm not saying those people don't exist, because I know there are plenty of you! And yes, I agree, along with the teaching stuff, that's where he is good for flamenco.

quote:

quote:

To me he´s just a musicians doing his show and he has the right to do so just like anyone else.

I agree with this too (I'm not trying to get him banned or anything!)


I don't think it's bashing.... but I'm not gushing with unequivocal praise. I'm trying to give credit where I think it's due, give information which I have good reason to believe is true, and criticise what I think is of dubious quality or worth. Feel free to disagree. If you can explain why you disagree I might learn something, and if you give me sufficient reason to, I will change my mind!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 17:07:19
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1859
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

you've seen PDL twice (or once and a bit), how many times have you seen JM?


Actually. several times. He even let me play his DeVoe. Not the greatest player, but his concerts are less boring than Paco´s.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 17:49:46
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13228
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Why not bash PdL instead? Many years ago I went to a concert of his in London: a little bit of bulería, then lots of rumba/tango with mediorcre singers. Soooooo boooring. I decided never again. A couple of years ago he gave a free concert here in La Plaza de la Catedral: just the same: excessive volume, buleria then flamenquito with mediocre singers. He really has bad taste in singers: after the good luck with Camaron, he picks Duquende, Potito, La Tana I went off for tapas somewhere else where you could´nt hear the racket I suppose he has to make a living.


Why not? cuz he still plays great. It's your opinion if you are bored, but some of us are familiar with his stuff and his concerts still bring high energy IMO. The singer issue I tend to agree is one dimensional...with minor exception with certain letras his concert and group tours are an "institution" of sorts, designed to remember Camaron and the songs his brother wrote for flamenco back in the day...so the camaronero thing is too be expected just as his little quotes from Entre dos Aguas etc. For artistic sake I hope he one day does some work with a more rounded style cantaor...but lets be honest... those days are over both for HIM as an artist (he doesn't need to do it for ANY reason) and for cante too IMO. Please admit which cantaor would be best paired with only PDL today? Poveda? Nah...

Juan Martin I just saw a buleria vid "teaching" where he is sneaking in 100% PDL Almoraima stuff and not even one honorable mention of his source material.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 21:15:45
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Juan Martin I just saw a buleria vid "teaching" where he is sneaking in 100% PDL Almoraima stuff


I know exactly what you're talking about, I wanted to ask him about it but I never found the words to do it tactfully........

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 21:24:34
 
tburke

 

Posts: 45
Joined: Nov. 21 2011
From: Toronto

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

If the whole JM not actually being Spanish thing is true( not saying it is by any means)
I wonder then if he has other alter ego's performing other ethnic musics, Perhaps a Cossack hammered dulcimerist based out of Singapore?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 23:05:53
 
kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

Typical afficionado talk, taking themselves too seriously.
Grow up and join the challenges if you're all that good, or perhaps just a falsetta of 10 seconds, if you manage to play that long in compas and with aire.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2012 23:24:06
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

I totally agree and thats why I cant get upset with JM. To me he´s just a musicians doing his show and he has the right to do so just like anyone else.


I agree with both , I used to think that Jm devaluates it too (but now i realize it was the kid in me talking...like who is stronger, who's better, who's faster.. ...or who would win in a fight between Van Damme and Arnold type of thing lol) who cares... ...hes just doing his thing...i think there's room for everyone to get their respect


I think a lot more people than would like to admit started out with his book

like his music or not he has done a good instructional book for guitar beginners, i still think its the best planned out book that moves in a natural way through palos and techniques used and explanations, using the traditional characteristical falsetas, escobillas etc.. but simplified for the beginner student without losing the melody, i think there is something to respect there weather he did it because thats all he could do or because he planned it for the beginner...it dosent confuse too much someone that wants to start learning, it eases one in with accessible stuff thats not impossible...its a good basic setup in the right direction...the rest its up to the individual...to explore deeper..one cant blame him or have negative feelings because after hes learned a couple of things...now he thinks JM was too easy...a beginner book should be doable and accessible



there are about a million better guitarists then him ...but his book is the first i recommend to any of my first time students looking to start learning ...cause it makes the most sense imo so this days it would be hypocritical of me to not offer any kind of respect.

many other books have better content but are poorly planned, like lines upon lines of tablature or a million variations examples ...and you get to the end and still cant play one palo or understand the structure or on page 8 in the tab its asking for a technique that hasn't even been covered in the book yet

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 1:33:26
 
RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Florian

quote:

I agree with both , I used to think that Jm devaluates it too (but now i realize it was the kid in me talking...like who is stronger, who's better, who's faster.. ...or who would win in a fight between Van Damme and Arnold type of thing lol) who cares... ...hes just doing his thing...i think there's room for everyone to get their respect


I think a lot more people than would like to admit started out with his book

like his music or not he has done a good instructional book for guitar beginners, i still think its the best planned out book that moves in a natural way through palos and techniques used and explanations, using the traditional characteristical falsetas, escobillas etc.. but simplified for the beginner student without losing the melody, i think there is something to respect there weather he did it because thats all he could do or because he planned it for the beginner...it dosent confuse too much someone that wants to start learning, it eases one in with accessible stuff thats not impossible...its a good basic setup in the right direction...the rest its up to the individual...to explore deeper..one cant blame him or have negative feelings because after hes learned a couple of things...now he thinks JM was too easy...a beginner book should be doable and accessible



there are about a million better guitarists then him ...but his book is the first i recommend to any of my first time students looking to start learning ...cause it makes the most sense imo so this days it would be hypocritical of me to not offer any kind of respect.

many other books have better content but are poorly planned, like lines upon lines of tablature or a million variations examples ...and you get to the end and still cant play one palo or understand the structure or on page 8 in the tab its asking for a technique that hasn't even been covered in the book yet


X2
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 2:28:38
 
Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Florian

quote:

there are about a million better guitarists then him ...but his book is the first i recommend to any of my first time students looking to start learning ...cause it makes the most sense imo so this days it would be hypocritical of me to not offer any kind of respect.


I would like to take this opportunity to say that 'as quoted above' JM material helps (many) as a beginner quite a lot. I've found some really nice recources that explain the fundamentals of flamenco, but JM is for me one of them.

For that i really don't care if he's good perforing live..

Responding to opinions here..

I don't think JM is as 'playing god' like PDL... but to me he's a way better teacher than him... He doesn't seem to make any claim in his book/vidoes about calling it so called 'his falsetas'.. He simply says, it's what he knows how to play.

To me.. I wouldn't mind if he has a bad day performing.. I don't care if he called himself 'John' in the UK.. and although i believe he's born in andalusia, i would not even care if he's not...

If using a reference from a commercial magazin helps him to promote what he does, I think it's great to do so. If he would perform here i would visit his perfomance and would be flattered to be lable to...

So from me to you Juan, or John.. whatever anyone states her... i love your lessons, and i think you are better in doing that then anyone complaining here :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 4:13:30
 
Yojimbo

Posts: 176
Joined: Feb. 7 2011
From: Toronto, Canada

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Flamencito

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flamencito

quote:

there are about a million better guitarists then him ...but his book is the first i recommend to any of my first time students looking to start learning ...cause it makes the most sense imo so this days it would be hypocritical of me to not offer any kind of respect.


I would like to take this opportunity to say that 'as quoted above' JM material helps (many) as a beginner quite a lot. I've found some really nice recources that explain the fundamentals of flamenco, but JM is for me one of them.

For that i really don't care if he's good perforing live..

Responding to opinions here..

I don't think JM is as 'playing god' like PDL... but to me he's a way better teacher than him... He doesn't seem to make any claim in his book/vidoes about calling it so called 'his falsetas'.. He simply says, it's what he knows how to play.

To me.. I wouldn't mind if he has a bad day performing.. I don't care if he called himself 'John' in the UK.. and although i believe he's born in andalusia, i would not even care if he's not...

If using a reference from a commercial magazin helps him to promote what he does, I think it's great to do so. If he would perform here i would visit his perfomance and would be flattered to be lable to...

So from me to you Juan, or John.. whatever anyone states her... i love your lessons, and i think you are better in doing that then anyone complaining here :)


Ditto, especially your last phrase.

And he was born in Malaga.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 6:59:40
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 11:43:43
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Morante

quote:



quote:

you've seen PDL twice (or once and a bit), how many times have you seen JM?



Actually. several times. He even let me play his DeVoe. Not the greatest player, but his concerts are less boring than Paco´s.


Uh - uh... This is getting dangerous.
I stopped going to solo guitar concerts years ago. I find them all to be boring. I need a singer or a dancer in order to stay awake.
Solo guitar now, is basically to many notes and to many boring passing chords and there´s this horrible light tendency to bring light flamenco singers singing le le le por tangos etc. I hate it and IMHO its not better than the music I hear in supermarkets. No b*llocks no soul. Just plain boring, a nice black shirt, semi long hair, a bit of gold and a face expression that looks like its been studied for hours in the mirror. CLICHE

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 12:43:52
 
Yojimbo

Posts: 176
Joined: Feb. 7 2011
From: Toronto, Canada

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mark indigo

Because Ruben was born in Malaga, he's well plugged into the local flamenco scene and he has nothing to gain by telling falsehoods. Plus this is consistent with what JM himself has said. It's credible information from a credible source.

What's up with people here that don't believe the guy? JM says he was born in Spain. He speaks fluent Spanish like a local yet the haters here don't believe him. I used to think this attitude was just ridiculous, but now I'm starting to think it's pretty sad.

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The universe is indeed expanding - to get away from this planet.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 12:52:38
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