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Well, recent hijackings were done by older members to defuse the impending meltdown....with success. Some outside observers simply not aware that was what that was, no big deal really and it's ok to explain it to them too.

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Juan Martin. Nice to hear the positive comments about him being a great ambassador for flamenco

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ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I was having a discussion on a non-flamenco (but) music related board and got on the topic of Paco with some guy on there. Just thought I'd share this guys comments about Juan Martin vs PdL, since Mr Martin can be a hot topic at times:

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Well, although I'm not a musician



, I know something about flamenco,



and although he also did some pop records with electric instruments backing him (like Paco has done), Juan Martin seems to me to be far more of a flamenco purist.


The purists of flamenco music (or so I've heard) often have a higher regard for Juan than Paco,



even if he is less famous. Even when Juan has experimented with marrying it with other things, like ancient arabic music, or composed lengthy suites of tunes, he has kept the music to a strict flamenco form. To my ears,



even when Paco plays guitar according to a strict flamenco form, the way he uses backing musicians often makes the music not 'feel' like flamenco at all and, therefore, it can sound soulless and the whole point of the music is gone.



Juan has very rarely been guilty of that sin ('Through a Moving Window', recorded 1988, would be his cardinal offence!) and his playing seems to play more attention to the 'storytelling quality' which is fundamental to all forms of flamenco expression, guitar playing, singing etc. etc.

I don't think I underrate Paco.




I have several of his records, including a few old ones, and I think highly of him. My feeling as to why Paco hasn't done as much to expand the horizons of flamenco music as Juan is that Juan not only accepts the idea of flamenco as a way of life, but has studied the culture to such a degree, he seems able to raise flamenco musical expression to new artistic heights.



Witness his Andalucian Suites album of 1990, or even the old Solo Album of 1985...they're like some pure flamenco poetry. Paco may have been the first to popularize rhumbas and Latin American forms in flamenco, but I've yet to hear something from him that has the same level of musical sensitivity to it as what Juan has done on recordings like these. To my ears, Juan has a greater capacity for expression on the guitar, and can play with finesse as well as he can with passion. But, as you say, this is largely a question of likes/dislikes...

Just thought I'd share someone's point of view that is not really a flamenco guitar aficionado or student. I disagree with the guy of course! [:D] But no one can deny that Juan Martin has had a strong influence on the listening public.

Ricardo

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had a nett negative impact on flamenco

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as the "listening public" don't know any different and can't tell what's going on they believe the hype. I had a copy of the Andalucian Suites cd and there are timing mistakes, the only flamenco recording I have heard with that kind of timing/rhythm errors, including recordings of live juergas... but yeah, influcence on the general public... and that's why on the whole I feel that JM has

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had a nett negative impact on flamenco

, because he devalues it, and makes people think his mediocrity is "the real thing"

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because he devalues it, and makes people think his mediocrity is "the real thing"

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He only devalues it if an individual allows him to devalue it from their perspective. I doubt many do.

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The only people who would think his mediocrity is "the real thing" are those who discovered JM and then stopped there. Again, I doubt many do. Most will go on, discover other flamenco artists and support them

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To me he´s just a musicians doing his show and he has the right to do so just like anyone else.

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Friend of mine wanted to bring over some young artists she met in Jerez, contacted local venue, and they said, "oh no, we have JM" And to me, that is also a case where he is not so good for flamenco.

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where I'm at nobody knows who Juan Martin is..... When I tell random people that I'm learning flamenco their only response is "Oh yeah, I love Paco de Lucia".

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Thats not JM´s fault. The whole freakin world is made like that.

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I´ve heard very little JM. He doesnt interest me and I´ve never heard him with a singer or a dancer.

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Why not bash PdL instead? ........I suppose he has to make a living.

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Why not bash PdL instead?

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Juan Martin. Nice to hear the positive comments about him being a great ambassador for flamenco

for his educational/learning stuff, yes, no doubt

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For everyone who was introduced to flamenco by JM and then did go further and discover other artists, that's great, and I'm not saying those people don't exist, because I know there are plenty of you! And yes, I agree, along with the teaching stuff, that's where he is good for flamenco.

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To me he´s just a musicians doing his show and he has the right to do so just like anyone else.

I agree with this too (I'm not trying to get him banned or anything!)

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you've seen PDL twice (or once and a bit), how many times have you seen JM?

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ORIGINAL: Morante

Why not bash PdL instead? Many years ago I went to a concert of his in London: a little bit of bulería, then lots of rumba/tango with mediorcre singers. Soooooo boooring. I decided never again. A couple of years ago he gave a free concert here in La Plaza de la Catedral: just the same: excessive volume, buleria then flamenquito with mediocre singers. He really has bad taste in singers: after the good luck with Camaron, he picks Duquende, Potito, La Tana[:@] I went off for tapas somewhere else where you could´nt hear the racket[:(] I suppose he has to make a living.

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Juan Martin I just saw a buleria vid "teaching" where he is sneaking in 100% PDL Almoraima stuff

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I totally agree and thats why I cant get upset with JM. To me he´s just a musicians doing his show and he has the right to do so just like anyone else.

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I agree with both , I used to think that Jm devaluates it too (but now i realize it was the kid in me talking...like who is stronger, who's better, who's faster.. ...or who would win in a fight between Van Damme and Arnold type of thing lol) who cares... ...hes just doing his thing...i think there's room for everyone to get their respect


I think a lot more people than would like to admit started out with his book

like his music or not he has done a good instructional book for guitar beginners, i still think its the best planned out book that moves in a natural way through palos and techniques used and explanations, using the traditional characteristical falsetas, escobillas etc.. but simplified for the beginner student without losing the melody, i think there is something to respect there weather he did it because thats all he could do or because he planned it for the beginner...it dosent confuse too much someone that wants to start learning, it eases one in with accessible stuff thats not impossible...its a good basic setup in the right direction...the rest its up to the individual...to explore deeper..one cant blame him or have negative feelings because after hes learned a couple of things...now he thinks JM was too easy...a beginner book should be doable and accessible



there are about a million better guitarists then him ...but his book is the first i recommend to any of my first time students looking to start learning ...cause it makes the most sense imo so this days it would be hypocritical of me to not offer any kind of respect.

many other books have better content but are poorly planned, like lines upon lines of tablature or a million variations examples ...and you get to the end and still cant play one palo or understand the structure or on page 8 in the tab its asking for a technique that hasn't even been covered in the book yet

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there are about a million better guitarists then him ...but his book is the first i recommend to any of my first time students looking to start learning ...cause it makes the most sense imo so this days it would be hypocritical of me to not offer any kind of respect.

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ORIGINAL: Flamencito

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there are about a million better guitarists then him ...but his book is the first i recommend to any of my first time students looking to start learning ...cause it makes the most sense imo so this days it would be hypocritical of me to not offer any kind of respect.

I would like to take this opportunity to say that 'as quoted above' JM material helps (many) as a beginner quite a lot. I've found some really nice recources that explain the fundamentals of flamenco, but JM is for me one of them.

For that i really don't care if he's good perforing live..

Responding to opinions here..

I don't think JM is as 'playing god' like PDL... but to me he's a way better teacher than him... He doesn't seem to make any claim in his book/vidoes about calling it so called 'his falsetas'.. He simply says, it's what he knows how to play.

To me.. I wouldn't mind if he has a bad day performing.. I don't care if he called himself 'John' in the UK.. and although i believe he's born in andalusia, i would not even care if he's not...

If using a reference from a commercial magazin helps him to promote what he does, I think it's great to do so. If he would perform here i would visit his perfomance and would be flattered to be lable to...

So from me to you Juan, or John.. whatever anyone states her... i love your lessons, and i think you are better in doing that then anyone complaining here :)

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you've seen PDL twice (or once and a bit), how many times have you seen JM?



Actually. several times. He even let me play his DeVoe. Not the greatest player, but his concerts are less boring than Paco´s.