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Ricardo

Posts: 13231
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

Juan Martin vs PdL 

I was having a discussion on a non-flamenco (but) music related board and got on the topic of Paco with some guy on there. Just thought I'd share this guys comments about Juan Martin vs PdL, since Mr Martin can be a hot topic at times:

quote:

Well, although I'm not a musician, I know something about flamenco, and although he also did some pop records with electric instruments backing him (like Paco has done), Juan Martin seems to me to be far more of a flamenco purist. The purists of flamenco music (or so I've heard) often have a higher regard for Juan than Paco, even if he is less famous. Even when Juan has experimented with marrying it with other things, like ancient arabic music, or composed lengthy suites of tunes, he has kept the music to a strict flamenco form. To my ears, even when Paco plays guitar according to a strict flamenco form, the way he uses backing musicians often makes the music not 'feel' like flamenco at all and, therefore, it can sound soulless and the whole point of the music is gone. Juan has very rarely been guilty of that sin ('Through a Moving Window', recorded 1988, would be his cardinal offence!) and his playing seems to play more attention to the 'storytelling quality' which is fundamental to all forms of flamenco expression, guitar playing, singing etc. etc.

I don't think I underrate Paco. I have several of his records, including a few old ones, and I think highly of him. My feeling as to why Paco hasn't done as much to expand the horizons of flamenco music as Juan is that Juan not only accepts the idea of flamenco as a way of life, but has studied the culture to such a degree, he seems able to raise flamenco musical expression to new artistic heights. Witness his Andalucian Suites album of 1990, or even the old Solo Album of 1985...they're like some pure flamenco poetry. Paco may have been the first to popularize rhumbas and Latin American forms in flamenco, but I've yet to hear something from him that has the same level of musical sensitivity to it as what Juan has done on recordings like these. To my ears, Juan has a greater capacity for expression on the guitar, and can play with finesse as well as he can with passion. But, as you say, this is largely a question of likes/dislikes...


Just thought I'd share someone's point of view that is not really a flamenco guitar aficionado or student. I disagree with the guy of course! But no one can deny that Juan Martin has had a strong influence on the listening public.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2005 18:43:31
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

Hehe

Juan came here i never bothered to go see him , i mean dont get me wrong out of all the flamenco guitar books , for beginners his is the best makes the most sence hes a better teacher than he is composer or guitarist.

I think i remember listening to some of his audios from the book the other day and asent nowhere near as impressed as i was when i was starting out.

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2005 18:54:30
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

hmm I think Juan M. lives in the false time. He better fits in the beginning years of flamenco.. When I hear him I feel thrown back at the beginning of my playing. But I like it. I learned old shool flamenco at first. After some years I first noticed that the flamenco evoluted very much.. I didnt know Paco and Co. for some years at first. I think it was good and important for me that I only knew Juan and Sabicas. Coz studying him is important to get the basics. If I would have known Paco or maybe Gerardo from my beginning...I would havent learned the basics. So.. its good that we have Juan. Thank you Juan!!

sorry I think I dont understand the whole text above..so my comment dont fit in this topic.. Im tired,... good night! (^^)//
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2005 19:18:16
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

He better fits in the beginning years of flamenco..


Yeah...that's how I feel.
But being a bit older than a lot of you on this forum, I believe that Juan arrived on the coat-tails of Paco Peña here in Britain, when the style was a dark suit and frilly white shirt.
(I've even got a video of PdL given to me by Jim O where Paco is wearing the same "Flamenco Uniform" in a gig! LOL! )
He's obviously got a good fan base around the world and good luck to him in that respect.
He's hardly advanced the form any, but that's not to say he hasn't made a valuable contribution with his didactic stuff and general exposure of basic Flamenco guitar.

It's tough making a living in music...

So olé his huevos!

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 22 2005 20:29:53
Guest

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

Well, now I'm going to get lynched

I'm not going to discuss PDL versus J. Martín. I agree, thats waste of time.

I must say though, that this guy (who wrote the text) IMHO is right in some things. Even though I'm a big fan of Paco, and listen to him a lot, I must admit that I agree in some of the things this guy says. There are MANY songs on various Paco albums that I consider Cheesy and bad taste. Paco always play very well and is very inspired and take everything to another level, BUT....... The arangements...Sometimes I just can't stand it.

Well. That's it, and that's me.... I now have to expect a sudden and violent death

Nice playing
Anders

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 7:09:56
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Guest

quote:

I now have to expect a sudden and violent death


Lets hope not..

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 7:15:40
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

There is some amazing bitterness in some parts of the flamenco community over Juan.
..he ain't really Spanish, his accent is fake, plays badly, doesn't deserve his success, there are hundreds of fantastic players in Spain who are starving who deserve greater recognition etc ..(that last one I read recently on alt.flamenco, the usenet spam wasteland where you take your life in your own hands if you dare mention Juan or the Gipsy Kings).

Let's face it, he was in the right place at the right time and capitalised on it to make a living and who can blaim him for that? If you get voted by Guitar Player magazine readers as one of the top players in the world, you don't keep that a secret you put it in your bio whether you really believe it or not. Doesn't make you big headed, it makes you shrewd.

He is, by all acounts (he is a friend of a friend) a really nice guy & totally down to earth.
His early tuition materials were/are excellent, I think 'El Arte' is a real classic book stuffed full of useful info, even if it is just the tip of the iceberg. For decades there was basically nothing else available, this was groundbreaking stuff.

Anyone seriously into flamenco knows where he 'fits in' as a player in the grand scheme of things, IMO, we don't really need to discuss it.

_____________________________

Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 8:55:43
Guest

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Anyone seriously into flamenco knows where he 'fits in' as a player in the grand scheme of things, IMO, we don't really need to discuss it.


I agree completely

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 10:27:39
 
el ted

 

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo's post is very interesting because I suspect that Juans' English audience would totally agree with the sentiment expressed. I have seen Juan many times, and the audiences in England, by and large, are non - aficiandos simply out for a good evenings entertainment. I am sure these good people would be baffled by Paco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 10:38:20
Guest

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to el ted

ive seen juan martin twice, and basically seeing him the first time turned me to doing flamenco, im personnally am not a big fan of paco, most of the time i listen to ramon montaya, nino ricardo and sabicas, and any old style stuff i can get my hands on. i find some of pdls compostions lacking in bite, they sound somewhat air fairy with pipes and other isitruments brought in, and its sounds at times more jazzy than flamenco.

i think people should make a disticntion between what is nuevo flamenco and old style playing. old style playing for me is about palying something simple, but at the same time profound.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 11:51:26
Guest

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Guest

This thread to me is really interesting......now lets imagine if Juan Martin would have accompanied Camaron instead of PDL. How would those albums have sounded??
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 16:39:18
Guest

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

I've been keeping up with this thread, thinking I had it all figured out until about 30minutes ago. My original contention was that I preferred Juan Martin/Traditional for basically two reasons: 1. I like the traditional sound, 2. Juan Martin's music sounds achievable to me as a musician. That's not to say I don't like PDL, but let's face it - I don't think I'll be playing a majority of his stuff in the near future if at all.

Like I said, I had all this figured out until about 30 minutes ago, when I was at the local entertainment video/music store renting some movies for the family to watch over the holidays, and thought I would go through the CD section all the while thinking in the back of my mind: "I know this little backwoods town isn't going to have any flamenco". I know this because I've looked before. But, to my surprise, they had one. It was a used disc that someone had traded back to the store. It's a recording of PDL from 1965 that he did with Ricardo Modrego titled "12 Canciones De Garcia Lorcia". This disc is very traditional sounding, and as usual displays PDL awesome talent. What can I say, PDL is da man! The disc is awesome. Exactly what I love about flamenco. Anyway, just my two cents.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 18:54:21
 
Francisco

Posts: 879
Joined: Jun. 13 2005
From: SW USA

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Guest

sorry, this was my post ^^^^
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 18:55:10
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

Oh actually there are several albums of PdL that are traditional... dos guitarras in stereo, fabulosa guitarra. La Fabulosa Guitarra De Paco De Lucia (1967) is what you really should give a try!
Its my favorite album of him.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 19:00:41
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

I have been afflicted by Ron with some strange strain of puro-itis, and it seems that as time goes on I like older sounding stuff more and more. I listen to a lot of Paco Pena nowadays, and Sabicas. Which is not to say that I'm not also listening to a lot of Rafael Riqueni and Vicente Amigo!

I learned some Granainas from Juan Martin that I still play at gigs, although I think they are Ramon Montoya falsetas :).

When you are talking about Paco, it is sort of like talking about Picasso. This is someone who thoroughly mastered the art very early (I saw some of Picasso's early sketches in Barcelona. He could draw a landscape and make it look like a photograph). Now most of us are never going to get as good as he was when he was 12--let's face it. Put yourself in his shoes at 17 years old and a master of all you survey. What are you going to do, play Nino Ricardo falsetas your whole life? No, you cast around and experiment and study and do what you want. You do a lot of drugs and wear white frilly shirts and hang out with out-there musicians like Meola and McLaughlin, and in your experimentations you change what flamenco guitar even means.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 20:50:31
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
most of us are never going to get as good as he was when he was 12--let's face it. Put yourself in his shoes at 17 years old and a master of all you survey.


I also thought that. At such a state you have to go for somthing new.
But the "new" thing can be still good or bad. Friday Night was good imho, coz it combined Flamenco and Fusion or whatever you call it, in an interesting way.

As ive read your last senrence miguel, i thought initially it was meant in a positive way... :)

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 21:13:36
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

I have been afflicted by Ron with some strange strain of puro-itis,

LOL! Mike,
I'm not so "puro" as you might think!
I like lots of stuff...
I've always been a sucker for the "first time around stuff" though..
When I heard Bert Jansch's first album I gave up playing trumpet and bought a guitar.
When I heard "Please Please Me" by the Beatles I knew something had changed forever.
Sgt.Pepper....same deal...
Beach Boys...The Doors etc...

When I heard "Hey Joe" by Hendrix, it was obvious that this guy had come out of nowhere to supercede Clapton and Townshend.
When I heard "Fantasia Flamenca", I realized that the bar had just risen, not by a couple of inches, but by a yard.
And so on....

I don't have the time to listen to albums that don't grab me straight away, but (so I'm told) will grab me after I've played them 50 times.
Life's too short IMO, and there are too many good players out there for me to find the time to "educate" my ear on a particular player's style or where his head's at.
That sort of stuff is for the groupies and dedicated fans....


cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 23 2005 21:19:34
 
luke.park

Posts: 114
Joined: Dec. 29 2005
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

hi there, i am a flamenco guitarist and am 16 years old. i am deeply into flamenco and this topic is interesting! i have learnt with Juan's books and have met and spoke with him and couple of times, great guy. however, i believe it completely depends where your personal passion lies. if it is with the traditional flamenco that is adapted and rooted strongly with the moors, then Juan Martin is incomparable with the work he has done and produces. purist wise, it is exactly what you want to hear and with the passion. i also believe he has a dominance of the guitar which i aspire for.

however, i have recently bought pdl's new album cositas buenas and after disliking it at first, i love it now. the more i listen the more i empathise with the way he experiments and the sound he produces. you know it is truly his and it is genuine as it keeps the flamenco feel of passion and genuineness. its great. it has also led me to getting into other nuevo artists such as tomatito.

i have read a lot of flamenco forums in the past few days as i hav just stumbled across the flamenco scene on the internet and hopefully now in britain where i live as i discover pena flamenca venues where i hope to go and perform, which is interesting as i have been completely cut-off and thought i was one of few.

at the end of the day, you can say personal preference but that is where flamenco is so interesting. when someone plays flamenco and produces something as paco de lucia and as juan martin as, they are expressing themselves. that is the utmost thing that we must take into consideration and respect about any flamenco artist even if you completely hate the sound they are producing. they are still expressing themselves, it is an inevitability of flamenco. that's what i have realised when listening to cositas buenas. this must be admired and respected.

at least, thats my personal interpretation so far, i completely understand it may change and may completely oppose what others think. respect to those who can express themselves through flamenco i think, even if you dont completely like it!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 16:45:07
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to luke.park

Hi Luke,

This must probably be amongst one of the the most intelligent posts ever written here IMO...

Flamenco is a very "broad church" and has lots of disciples.. each group fighting to the death to stand up for what they "know" absolutely is "genuine" Flamenco... LOL!

Welcome to our group amigo...

Join in the fun and the arguments!


cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 29 2005 20:19:56
 
flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to luke.park

quote:

i am a flamenco guitarist


A big welcome luke. I´m in the JM camp but you summed up reality very well. The great thing is that the wars are words and nobody gets hurt (well not in this foro) and they are great fun and at times very humorous and enlightening. And passion, even if it is misguided is IMHO better than no passion at all

On the 'I´m not alone ' front could you let us know where about you are based, who you use for tuition, etc. I´m near Newbury and find tuition distant, Ron is in Aberdeen, Ted has a thriving flamenco world in Hull, Jon Boyes is pleasing the folks in Plymouth, James is a potential English luthier based in London .... Yes we are not alone but we do seem to be pretty thinly spread. That I think is why this forum is so vital.

Sorry forgot to mention the hundreds of friends scattered around the world

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nigel (el raton de Watford - now Puerto de Santa Maria, Cadiz)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2005 9:51:50
 
luke.park

Posts: 114
Joined: Dec. 29 2005
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to flyeogh

quote:

A big welcome luke

thanks for the welcome, i can see this forum is gonna come in great handy for my journey!

i live in ashford in kent, and as you said feel isolated cos there's little if no flamencos around! however, lewes, near brighton has some flamenco activity which i have recently found out and will be taking a trip down there soon. there's a nice little backstreet guitarrareo who's hard to find called pablo riquena whom my teacher has recently purchased a guitar from.

my teacher is john musker, he teaches pupils around the ashford area electric, blues, he is a very versatile teacher. however, we have both come across flamenco together. i started four years ago with him at 12 and we decided that we'd give it a go. since we've been captured by it. he gets lessons with a man called chris in london whom i can get some details if you would like. john teaches me his new stuff he has learnt himself and from london and we both go along like that. i am constantly teaching myself new material and composing when i can to keep pushing my personal development.

we both have felt that we are pretty isolated which is true as most people play strictly classical and i have known some people to turn their noses up at flamenco- idiots! but some appreciate it very much which is good! i work a lot in bars and resaurants to earn a bit of money, and may perhaps be joining an agency soon which will involve getting more flamenco contacts

it is as you say vital to have this forum and keep in contact with others, its very amazing for me to come across it and my teacher john will be just as amazed and intrigued. i have recently got in contact with the management of tomatito who have given me these internet sites and refernces, which was nice of them!

i knowe this is what i want to do in life and the bar has been risen by what seems miles but i am determined to do it. thing is, ive never been to spain. sad eh? i am in my element just listening to it in the comfort of my ashford home, id probably die of happiness if i went to live with the spanish gypsy culture!!

there are pena flamenco venues scattered here and there, ive found one in lewes (near brighton) at the pub and there's one in bar andalucia in london where you can become a member and go to perform there. they hold meetings the second sunday of every month except august. the next meeting is 8th jan which i am hopefully gona go to!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2005 11:31:54
 
musicalgrant

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2005 12:56:37
 
flamenco_9

Posts: 214
Joined: Jan. 15 2004
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

hiii flamencos
intresting thread!
just I want to add some points:
what music like or dislike it is matter of taste but does not mean if one does not like or play modern music that he is not musician or artist.
juan martin definitly is an artist and musician but maybe he is not creative like paco.
do you know that martin writes his own music and that what paco can not do!!
and I bet that martin is better than paco as a teacher!
I can feel that martin is modest but paco is snoby....amI right?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2006 19:51:14
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Jon Boyes

Jon Boyes said:
quote:

There is some amazing bitterness in some parts of the flamenco community over Juan.
..he ain't really Spanish, his accent is fake, plays badly, doesn't deserve his success, there are hundreds of fantastic players in Spain who are starving who deserve greater recognition etc ..


What's this about his accent being fake? I speak Spanish pretty fluently and I couldn't imitate his accent. He sound very Spanish to me (as opposed to the accents of other Spanish speaking countries) and I've known a few Spaniards.

I'm not disagreeing, I just find this suggestion surprising. Could you provide some more background on this?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2006 22:45:44
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

I am further confused as I did a web search for a biography of JM and found this at wikipedia.org

quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Martin
Juan Cristóbal Martín (born Málaga, 1948) is a Spanish flamenco guitarist.

Juan Martin started learning the guitar at the age of six. He played in clubs in Málaga, Seville and Granada. In his early twenties he moved to Madrid to study under Nino Ricardo and Paco de Lucía. One of his first recordings was "Picasso Portraits" (1981). Each section is a depiction of a painting by Pablo Picasso. The compositions were by Juan, and the guests include Simon Phillips (session musician for Mike Oldfield and many others), most of the Gordon Giltrap Band, and some members of the Jeff Beck Band. Although it was not released until the 1990s, he recorded a track with Rory Gallagher in 1984 (on the album "Wheels Within Wheels"). The same track has Richard Thompson and David Lindley on it. He recorded with Herbie Hancock in 1987 and has played on stage with Miles Davis. His flamenco guitar method book "El Arte Flamenco de Guitarra" has been widely bootlegged around the world including one edition with a Chinaman on the cover and Juan pictured on the inside, almost like a model.

He divides his time between Malaga and London. One of his sons, Calos, learned the guitar, but gave it up for drum and bass. Understandably, Juan was very sad about this. Juan Martin has been voted in the top three guitarists in the world in ther magazine "Guitar Player". He has an English wife, Helen. They have a family business called Flamencovision. His latest albums have flamenco dancers on the soundtrack.


Perhaps they are complaining that is accent is Spanish is fake and he's trying to sound more Flamenco?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2006 22:51:31
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to flamenco_9

quote:

and I bet that martin is better than paco as a teacher!
I can feel that martin is modest but paco is snoby....amI right?


Our family has spent a good deal of time on several occasions with Juan Martin and think highly of him as a person, flamenco guitarist, and teacher. He is a very caring person and goes out of his way to help others. He is a very positive and encouraging person – the kind of person I like to be around.

I have never met PDL so I cannot comment about him.

Juan Martin has done a great deal to help others to learn flamenco. That is not true of everyone who plays flamenco guitar.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2006 2:22:06
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

lot of flamencos i met besides my teacher were sheer egotistical cads

btw met juan martin when he came to limerick last year, and in my view he's a true gentleman and great ambassador for the art.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2006 12:11:49
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

quote:

Juan Martin has done a great deal to help others to learn flamenco. That is not true of everyone who plays flamenco guitar.


Thats true Thomas you are right most people i know didnt start flamenco cause of Juan Martin tho, most peaople started cause, Gipsy Kings (funny as it might sound) Paco Pena, Paco, Otmar even etc.


But Juan is the guy who's book most people i know started learning flamenco with.

With that beeing said, no matter what he has done for Flamenco when he puts a solo cd out all that is out the window, he just gets judged on the cd.

If its a brilliant cd by all means great, it its bad whatever, my point is the fact that hes a nice person and made the most comprehensive beginner Flamenco guitar book shouldnt mean that we have to like his music. U can respect him, but personally musically and technically i wouldnt even use him in the same sentence with Paco.

or the next 50 - 70 guitarists down the list after Paco.

Vicente AMigo, Tomatito, NIno de Pura, Jeronimo, Juan Carlos ROmero, Paco Jarana, Pedro Serra, Diego del Morao, Nino Josele, Manolo Sanlucar, Gerardo Nunez,El Viejin, Rafel Riqueny, Moraito, Oscar herrero,Grisha, Paco pena, Rmon, jimenez, Serranito,Quique Paredes ,Pepe Habichuela,Paco Serrano,Juan Manuel Canizares, Juan Carmona BORBOREO, second tought i think it would be quicker to name the lesser players.

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2006 16:21:16
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1550
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Florian

quote:

If its a brilliant cd by all means great, it its bad whatever, my point is the fact that hes a nice person and made the most comprehensive beginner Flamenco guitar book shouldnt mean that we have to like his music. U can respect him, but personally musically and technically i wouldnt even use him in the same sentence with Paco.

or the next 50 - 70 guitarists down the list after Paco.


flo,

technically the man has improved alot since the guitarra flamenca videos he put out in the 80's.

when i saw him sept last year you could tell he had matured alot as a player, his speed is not on par with paco but he is very creative and had a broad spectrum of playing, he did a 8 min bossa nova piece, recuerdas del alhambra and a really fast salsa piece during the 2hr show, besides doing the more trad forms.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2006 16:40:29
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to henrym3483

quote:

technically the man has improved alot since the guitarra flamenca videos he put out in the 80's.


well you would hope so, thats brilliant, good for him. I can respect that, but still dosent really change his place in the foodchain.

Dont get me wrong, he has had a huge impact in flamenco more so Overseas than in Spain and he is a guitarist, he might have even been considered good for his time , i dont know, but technically and musically , i cant think of many guitarists in Spain who are lesser guitarists then him.

Hes a nice guy and a greate teacher and a flamenco personality (more so to the western world) but thats about where it ends.

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2006 16:49:44
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