RE: Juan Martin vs PdL

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XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

his speed is not on par with paco but he is very creative and had a broad spectrum of playing

I dont know JM very well. Ive seen only some videos of him and know some songs. But does the sentence above mean that hes more creative than paco?

quote:

foodchain

What place has Ottmar? Is he a goldfish? Or the GK, are they Rumba-cats?

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2006 16:52:46

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

quote:

his speed is not on par with paco but he is very creative and had a broad spectrum of playing

no, but tomatito has said in an interview "paco is the king of the flamenco guitar", though i would put tomatito on par with paco technique and creativity wise, thoguh others may disagree. but if everyone imitiated paco flamenco would be a littel stale IMO.
I personally dont think the title of greatest guitar palyer belongs to anyone, because no one will know every single falseta for each estillo no matter how long one had to live.

juan martin has great technique, and what he plays is flamenco, it's just down to personal taste. i bought his el alquemista cd, and i must say i was impressed by it.

also i think there tends to be alot of snobbery or alot like to call him out as a fraud.when in fact he is'nt.

as regards his past id said fair deuce to him for travelling to malaga when he was in his teens to learn more guitar, and to come back to make a living from it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2006 17:10:49

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

quote:

What place has Ottmar? Is he a goldfish? Or the GK, are they Rumba-cats?

thats another topic and u know they do have they place in there too, like it or not, admit it or not many of us outside Spain looked deeper into into flamenco because of guys or grups like this.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2006 17:22:15

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to henrym3483)

quote:

also i think there tends to be alot of snobbery or alot like to call him out as a fraud.when in fact he is'nt.

I have no idea where he is from, i never assumed he wasent spanish.

Look i know everyone has his taste, if u like his cool i cant take that away from you its your own responsibility to stay true to what u like..

but cmon lets not get crasy compearing him to Paco ?? or any of the other atlist 70 guitarists.

I have heard Juan Martin and i have heard the other atlist 70 guitarists and i think i made a pretty fair decision based on what i have heard, nothing to do with where hes from , or whatever.

Is there a track of his that i missed ? mibe u could give me the name so i can see what i might have overlooked

Ps. sorry about beeing so blunt today, i am a litlle tired, i might wake up tomarow and be embarassed by my bluntness and edit the post.

but if i do remember it as it is tonight because is 100% how i feel i would only be changing it to keep the peace and not make waves.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2006 17:43:51

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Florian)

Hm outside spain...maybe youre right. Btw are the GK popular in Spain? And among flamencos?

quote:

but tomatito has said in an interview "paco is the king of the flamenco guitar"

Yeah I mean... like him or not; he's tha king IMO (and in Tomatito's O)

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2006 17:47:30

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

BTW Flo! What happened to you?

You were always at hand to relativise Paco and now you put him high on his place, where he also belongs to IMO!

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2006 17:49:13

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

I still dont personally get or like all of Pacos music but i dont have to, to know that Juan Martin and Paco are 2 different planets.

There is some Paco stuff i love and theres some i hate, but Juan M even on his bestest day dosent get anywhere near the Paco stuff i hate.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2006 18:12:13

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Florian)

flo,

Torrente del alma and Ritmeo y taconeo (dunno if they're splet right) are pretty good pieces of the album i mentioned.(the alchemist-el alquemista)

as i said its all down to personal taste, ps that list is fairly long and with alot of good artists and i would'nt dream of saying one is better than the other or one person is the best overall.

según algunas personas Sabicas era el rey de la guitarra en su tiempo pero Paco es el rey para ahora.

i still think of them as great artists in their own right.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2006 18:25:55

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

Which pieces from Paco do you hate? Im just curious. Not to judge on you.
Maybe you already mentioned, but I might have forgotten, sorry.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2006 19:15:41

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

Juan Martin is "okay" in places.

Paco is "very good" in places.

Both have their strong points and weak points, and appeal to slightly different audiences.

I have JM songs I like, and JM songs I don't like.

I have PDL songs I like, and PDL songs I don't like.

If I had to choose one as the best exponent of Flamenco, it would probably be Paco.

But I also admit that Juan is probably much, much better than I will ever be.

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2006 20:39:10

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to JBASHORUN)

The only songs i don´t like from paco is the the rumbas on siroco and luzia it´s not bad songs
it´s just the arrangement i don´t like.

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This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 3 2006 20:52:54

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to duende)

i would'nt say their is any piece i dislike strongly, it's just some pieces dont have any spark, crunch bite to them for me that is. however, i got the almoraima album last week in hmv, and i like alot of the tracks including almoraima (bulerias) and plaza alta(solea),

im just not really fascinated by the flute, and fretless bass to name a few of the more modern elements that have become integrated to "his sound".

maybe i approached the man wrong by listening to his modern material and only beginning to listen to his original stuff.

id like to see the man go back and do an album with just him, palmas and cante.with non of the "modern" fluff. i think we all would like this.

i mean that tv appearence with him and camaron playing por bulerias is just magic.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 9:05:49

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

If you like PDL's 'Almoraima', try Juan's 'The Alchemist' CD. These are my favourites by these two chaps.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 9:11:16

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to el ted)

yep have el alquemista.the alchemist

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 9:31:23

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

I am sorry if i sounded a bit harsh on Juan, i think hes made a gerate contribuition to learning guitar, i have absoluteley no problem with what Juan does, or think hes a froad or question his dedication to flamenco.

It always surprises me when there are hundreds of brilliant new cds from new guitarists at flamenco world but yes is almost allways the same names that come up here, Paco Pena and Juan Martin, beginners who dont know anybetter not having heard anything else might get confused into thinking that this guys are the best when all they are is really good at bussines and marketing overseas..

They are good guitarists and they have they'r place in flamenco but they are nowhere near the top of the ladder. IMO

my post is not about beeing disrespectfull to flamenco history (because thats exactly what this guys are) but its about beeing respectfull to the acctual scene now and the hundreds of great guitarists doing it now.
respect the history but keep your eyes on the present everynow and then too..
Is like the presnt guitarists shouldnt even bother anymore because we all just have our minds made up what flamenco should be and sound like and we like nothing else.

my 2 cents

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 10:08:09

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

but what, makes them any less valid?

ie the ladder bit sounds a bit kinda superlative.it seems like in the flamenco world everyone is vying for what is the truth but the truth is relative to everyones taste.

its like me saying john frusciante is better than vai, or malmsteen or page or any of the other rock gods around, they all have their own sound.
i would say that more of the people in your list would be appreciated more if they toured outside spain and the continent more.

my listening list in no particuliar order includes:
thats a broad spectrum.and its mainly hampered by the fact i cannot afford cds on a regular basis and finding something like moaraito or el nino miguel in hmv or music megastore is nigh on impossible.

cante
aurora vargas
sara vargas
manolo caracol
terremote de jerez
la nina de los peines
pepe de la matrona
potito
camaron
jose merce

guitar
paco de lucia
tomatito
Sabicas
chicuelo
nino ricardo
pedro bacan.
juan martin.
paco pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 10:28:52

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to henrym3483)

quote:

its like me saying john frusciante is better than vai, or malmsteen or page or any of the other rock gods around, they all have their own sound.

that applies to the acctual music yes, taste is free, music is subjectable

but talking about technique, musicallity, dificulty of the piece thats not subjective, good technique is good technique.

the fact the Paco scales are faster, cleaner and harder than any of the 2 guitarists is not subjective, i think its safe to say its a fact.

Pacos pieces are more difficult to perform, again not subjective but a fact.

Pacos, music, alot more harmonically sophisticated, WAY WAY more, (mibe subjective, but i doubt it)

Finally yes all it matters is the music u like or not and that is your free choice and right, but there is a difference in the skills of the guitarists witch are not subjective they are facts.

quote:

my listening list in no particuliar order includes:
thats a broad spectrum.and its mainly hampered by the fact i cannot afford cds on a regular basis and finding something like moaraito or el nino miguel in hmv or music megastore is nigh on impossible

thats exactly my point, this is why u think this guys are the best, because by the looks of it u have a handfull of guitar cds and its hard to find good flamenco cds in stores.
But u can always find Paco Pena and Martin.
How could u possiblly judge a movie when you have only seen the previews.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 10:40:13

Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

quote:

its like me saying john frusciante is better than vai, or malmsteen or page or any of the other rock gods around, they all have their own sound.

that applies to the acctual music yes, taste is free, music is subjectable

but talking about technique, musicallity, dificulty of the piece thats not subjective, good technique is good technique.

the fact the Paco scales are faster, cleaner and harder than any of the 2 guitarists is not subjective, i think its safe to say its a fact.

I agree but it goes much, much deeper than just technique IMO. PDL's contribution to flamenco as a living art form today is not really something thats debateable. Its like debating what kind of impact Segovia had on the classical guitar. PDL changed the landscape, whether you are a fan of his music or not.

PDL is a household name for most flamencos, whereas most would say 'Juan who?'

Again, not wishing to be disrespectful (see my earlier post).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 10:51:30

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

All the discussions about who is the flamenco guitar master and what is flamenco and what is not flamenco and all the subjective individual ratings and ladders and if its authentic or not or makes me a bit tired in the last weeks.

Isnt it like discussing in a bar about professional footbal-strategies or discussing about the ethics in stemcell research?
The fact is: Most of the people (99,9%) dont really know what they are talking about. They just catched here and there some subjective statements of othe people who heared here and there some subjective statements and they think they know how all belongs together. But they dont know just 0,1%..
So.., talking about personal tastes is ok. But talking some players down under the ground or raising some players above all other players only coz they released some CDs or got some good "subjective" critics in journals, isnt right in my opinion.
There are so many players in the whole world who didnt released a cd and are complete unknown but they are as good as paco or his fellows. Trust me.
Every year they vote for miss germany, miss brazil and so on (not the unknown super-guitarrists...ok? Just some magazines or TV shows.). And some pepole are so perky to vote the best looking woman on the world. tststs... Thats totally crap! Coz our girlfriends are the best looking women in the whole universe! Isnt it like that? Just personal subjective individual taste. There are things in the universe which isnt able to put it in rated mathematical categories.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 10:58:23

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

Again sorry for beeing so contreversial today

I realize many people love this guitarists music and thats cool, i like some Paco Pena tracks myself, i am not saying theyr music is crap, what the best music is (is subjective).

Is just the skills of the guitarist witch are not subjective.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 11:19:35

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Florian)

quote:

thats exactly my point, this is why u think this guys are the best, because by the looks of it u have a handfull of guitar cds and its hard to find good flamenco cds in stores.
But u can always find Paco Pena and Martin.
How could u possiblly judge a movie when you have only seen the previews.

this is the number of guitarist's albums i have for each artist:
so i dont think im starved of flamenco guitar

-and i kinda worked out ive' spent more than 250€ on this cd colletion.

yikes

paco de lucia *5albums
tomatito*3albums
Sabicas*5 albums
chicuelo*1 album
nino ricardo*4 albums
pedro bacan*3 albums
juan martin*1 album
paco pena*2 albums
gerardo nunez*2

technically speaking, most people would give there right testes to have pacos technique, but id say the same of sabicas, tomatito, nino ricardo or gerardo nunez.these guys had/have got skills.

if you speak of techniques, everyone has their niches, ie. tomatitos pulgar, sabicas' arrepegio and tremol scales, nino ricardos pulgar-ragueado tech.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 13:16:12

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

Doit,
great post...

This reminds me of the Eagles website. The Eagles are a football team based in PHiladelphia, Pennsylvania, USA that I have followed since I was a kid. Although they have been one of the most successful franchises over the last 5-6 years, you have literally hundreds of fans coming on the forum to badmouth them or criticize them. It's just appalling how ignorant these people are, yet their opinions are so strong!

It's kind of like flamenco...or politics...or religion..or...uh, geez I guess everything. That probably doesn't make any sense, does it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 15:12:25

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to duende)

quote:

ORIGINAL: duende

The only songs i don´t like from paco is the the rumbas on siroco and luzia it´s not bad songs
it´s just the arrangement i don´t like.

I can completey agree. Although my opinion on the Rumba on LuZia changed by time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 17:10:57

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to henrym3483)

quote:

this is the number of guitarist's albums i have for each artist:
so i dont think im starved of flamenco guitar -and i kinda worked out ive' spent more than 250€ on this cd colletion. yikes

paco de lucia *5albums
tomatito*3albums
Sabicas*5 albums
chicuelo*1 album
nino ricardo*4 albums
pedro bacan*3 albums
juan martin*1 album
paco pena*2 albums
gerardo nunez*2

Thats nothing. I have about 30 Paco De Lucia albums (literally). Only 2 Juan Martin ones though...

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 17:26:20

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to JBASHORUN)

quote:

Thats nothing. I have about 30 Paco De Lucia albums (literally).

jaysus, thats alot. people tell me to buy zyryab, sirroco and fuente y caudal next.

what would you recommend fom the 3?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 18:22:39

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to XXX)

quote:

people tell me to buy zyryab, sirroco and fuente y caudal after im next.

what would you recommend fom the 3?

Thats a tough one... can I choose ALL 3?!

well, if I had to pick, it'd probably Siroco. Although Fuente Y Caudal is good too. But if you like the "old-school" sound then go for "Fabulosa Guitarra de PDL" and "Fantasia Flamenca", I like those a lot. Or if you like Cante, try the one with Camaron: "El Camaron De La Isla/Con colaboracion..."

But I think there is something worth hearing on most PDL albums.

Jb

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 18:54:21

duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to henrym3483)

If you havent heard a lot of Pdl i would never buy Zyriab. it´s WAY to modern.
Buy Almoramia or Solo quiero caminar.

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 4 2006 19:41:25

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

why Paco hasn't done as much to expand the horizons of flamenco music

Hmmm...

quote:

[unlike Paco?] Juan not only accepts the idea of flamenco as a way of life, but has studied the culture to such a degree

Uh huh...

quote:

I've yet to hear something from him that has the same level of musical sensitivity

... soooomebody's been hittin' the pipe one time too many

Seriously though, they both have their place. I don't think I'll be writing anything new here:

I'm not at all against respect to Juan for his contributions, but more against the negative comparison with Paco. It doesn't really make me angry nor do I take it personally somehow, I just think it's a bunch of hooey. Listen to a Rondena from the man, for God's sake! Tell me there's no musical sensitivity in there! Hasn't he not only studied the flamenco culture but much more was in it and at many times right in the center of it?

How can you on the one hand talk positively about being a purist (or not) and on the other talk positively about expanding horizons (or not)? Sometimes I think it's fun to listen to an Elvis song in a bar every once in a while, but imagine if the rock movement had stopped there! There'd be no Britney Spears, no Creed

And if non-flamencos are baffled by anything other than the same old thing Montoya played almost a hundred years ago... geez... free your mind, man! <leaves room>

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 6 2006 21:32:32