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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL   You are logged in as Guest
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mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Yojimbo

quote:

the haters here don't believe him


it's not a hate thing.... as I said before, I know and/or have known many people who knew him in London years ago, going back to before he was "famous" and they all say the same thing: that he grew up in Brighton, UK, that they all knew him as "John Martin", and that he didn't have a Spanish accent.... several of them have said things like "maybe he had some family in Spain" which could acount for the connection to Malaga.

none of them rated his playing very highly, but that's a different issue. I think his teaching stuff and his actual playing are separate issues. IMO his origins have no bearing on his playing or teaching, BUT they are part of his publicity and what he is selling and how he is selling it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 13:12:02
 
Yojimbo

Posts: 176
Joined: Feb. 7 2011
From: Toronto, Canada

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

the haters here don't believe him


it's not a hate thing.... as I said before, I know and/or have known many people who knew him in London years ago, going back to before he was "famous" and they all say the same thing: that he grew up in Brighton, UK, that they all knew him as "John Martin", and that he didn't have a Spanish accent.... several of them have said things like "maybe he had some family in Spain" which could acount for the connection to Malaga.

none of them rated his playing very highly, but that's a different issue. I think his teaching stuff and his actual playing are separate issues. IMO his origins have no bearing on his playing or teaching, BUT they are part of his publicity and what he is selling and how he is selling it.


Over here in Canada there is a politician who was born in Quebec (with french as his first language) who can speak almost perfect unaccented english. When he wanted to be leader of one of the national political parties he called himself John Charest, presumably to be more acceptable to english speaking Canada. When he instead decided to enter Quebec provincial politics, he became known as Jean Charest.

It doesn't seem at all odd to me that Juan Martin called himself John (if that story is true) in an attempt to fit into the english scene and to become accepted in his new homeland. And especially so since many English people aren't exactly welcoming to other nationalities.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 13:44:25
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I can only wonder what pros in Spain would have to say about J. Martin,


they say..." - who ?"


I am sorry ...i am not joining in the JM good or bad discussion i have no opinion or rather dont care or think its worth arguing over......but i have had this answer a couple of times ..and ...well ...with whats out there in their own backyard...I cant say I blame em... it wasn't arrogance, they just really haven't heard of him...he seems to be known anywhere else other than spain

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 13:44:42
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Florian

quote:

It doesn't seem at all odd to me that Juan Martin called himself John (if that story is true) in an attempt to fit into the english scene and to become accepted in his new homeland. And especially so since many English people aren't exactly welcoming to other nationalities.


" - omg i heard the accent i thought you were Spanish !!...but.... your name is John so ... you must be English , my bad chap.... lets have a cup of tea and a game of cricket " ...( dont act surprised...you poms know thats all you do all day ..)

if black or asian people that ever experienced racism anywhere in the world only knew... i think Juan discovered a way to avoid discrimination...in England "John " in Germany "Klaus" ..in France "Pierre" and in china "Lee"

its in the 007 handbook, page 3...effective disguise


sorry bro...just too funny i am not making fun of you, but i am entertaining myself imagining scenarios

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 13:59:27
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Florian

quote:

" - omg i heard the accent i thought you were Spanish !!...but.... your name is John so ... you must be English , my bad chap.... lets have a cup of tea and a game of cricket "


.....but you're rumbled, no old-school Oxbridge professor type would say "my bad chap", it would be "good chap", or "old chap"




quote:

It doesn't seem at all odd to me that Juan Martin called himself John (if that story is true) in an attempt to fit into the english scene

possibly.... but on the flamenco scene no way. A friend of mine, doesn't speak spanish, got hired for a gig (this is probably back in 70's or early 80's), rest of the group all Brits, and he was told "don't speak English, you got to pretend to be Spanish". So if anything there would be great kudos in being Spanish, and no reason to try to fit in as English..... unless you were at school here and then you would want to fit in completely.....

also, remember this post earlier in the thread from Erik;
quote:

As far as i know he is foreign as well and born as John.
Why would a Spaniard pretend to be English to a Dutchman??! Especially a Dutch guy who knew Paco Peña.... maybe JM was trying to pass himself off as English to Paco Peña too....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 15:28:17

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mark indigo

Come on guys....really? Eight pages of this nonsense???
There are clearly a few people here who really need to get out more often.
Sheesh.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 15:38:49
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

Come on guys....really? Eight pages of this nonsense???
There are clearly a few people here who really need to get out more often.
Sheesh.


Yeah, flamenco is in crisis.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 16:34:38
 
Escribano

Posts: 6305
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to C. Vega

quote:

Come on guys....really? Eight pages of this nonsense???
There are clearly a few people here who really need to get out more often.
Sheesh.


+1

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 17:06:42
 
Northern Rock

Posts: 85
Joined: Oct. 12 2008
From: London UK

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Yojimbo

quote:

And especially so since many English people aren't exactly welcoming to other nationalities


Could please tell from bases do you make that statement,have you been to England , what experience you base that on as its avery different one to mine growing up here in ENGLAND.

Craig McTaggart Hertfordshire England UK

_____________________________

"Now Im retired I,ve got my practise time down to 4 hours aday".................Julian Bream
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 18:01:24
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Yojimbo

quote:

He speaks fluent Spanish like a local yet the haters here don't believe him.
the question is : does he speak the andalusian accent? I dont think so, it did not sound like it when i met him...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 18:01:39
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

the question is : does he speak the andalusian accent? I dont think so, it did not sound like it when i met him...

Get outta here Kudo........

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 18:05:35
 
Northern Rock

Posts: 85
Joined: Oct. 12 2008
From: London UK

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Yeah, flamenco is in crisis.


This thing with Juan Martin has been going on for 30 years here in the UK and is pretty boreing now.Unfortunatly his own silence is deafening at times but then thats his own business and is between him and his own parents.

If he has lied I feel sorry for him as a youthful slip has painted himself into a corner.

As for my self I will all ways be gratefull to him for his book , the four pieces tabbed "The Exciting Sound of Flamenco" and his 3 videos from the 1990s as they helped this coutry guitar/Ragtime picker make a start in Flamenco Guitar while outside Spain.
And if I meet him I would shake his hand and tell him so, his parentage would not come up,none of my business !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No I dont listen to his records any more , haven't for along time, we all move on,though I would say a "Best of Juan Martin " would be a nice record, just because hes not cutting edge dosen't make him a bad man,

_____________________________

"Now Im retired I,ve got my practise time down to 4 hours aday".................Julian Bream
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 18:24:19
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

but you're rumbled, no old-school Oxbridge professor type would say "my bad chap", it would be "good chap", or "old chap"


heh, you right, just noticed... its exactly what i wanted to say but i put the "," in the wrong place

as in " my mistake, chap..." or...whatever you say before tea and cricket...anyway , I am sure i dont need to tell you... you know


sorry guys ...

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 18:48:21
 
Escribano

Posts: 6305
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Yojimbo

quote:

And especially so since many English people aren't exactly welcoming to other nationalities.


Your opinion is one thing, whilst facts are another.

Canada population: 35,007,100
People per square mile: 9

Total estimated migration in 2012: 248,748

UK: population 62,262,000
People per square mile: 96
Non-EU migrants in 2012: 191,615
Migrants from the EU in 2010: 669,000 (no stats for 2012)

Total estimated migration in 2012: 860,000

Canada also has 10 times the space to share.

I would suggest that the UK (not just England) is exceedingly welcoming of other nationalities, and that includes my Mexican wife.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 19:22:24
 
Northern Rock

Posts: 85
Joined: Oct. 12 2008
From: London UK

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Escribano

quote:

I would suggest that the UK (not just England) is exceedingly welcoming of other nationalities, and that includes my Mexican wife.
Thank You
_____________________________


_____________________________

"Now Im retired I,ve got my practise time down to 4 hours aday".................Julian Bream
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 19:54:44
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to mark indigo

Hello Florian, you old sod. Long time no see.


Did I say that right?

__________________

Anyone ever read Gerald Howson's book Flamencos of Cadiz Bay?

Well in the new edition he wrote a few notes in the back. One about a certain hotshot Madrid gypsy kid who we all recognize asa hotty guitarist. When the kid was about 14 he used to go to his daddies gig at the Corral....There was an older guitarist who played older material and he was running through his stuff to warm up back stage. The hotshot kid could play circles around him at 14. This gitano kid rolled up his eyes and exclaimed how much of a drag it was to have to sit through this old farts insufferable funky toque.

The daddy who is a venerable flamenco guitarist on the Madrid scene grabbed him and threw him out. He scolded him and said you are banned from coming to see me at work for two months. You need to learn respect for a man who has 50 more years of knowledge about flamenco than you do.


Don't let the door hit you on the tuckus on the way out kid.

I'm betting that if Paco de Lucia heard of a conversation like this he would go for the respect way instead of rolling his eyes up like a hot shot Jr. high schooler.

This only serves to peak my interest about Juan Martin, who I know does not play like Paco. Then again Paco does not play like Juan Martin.

Doubters read Howson, check your ego into the coat closet in the foyer.



P.S. - I actually heard that story from a certain American guitarist in residence in Madrid who is long time friends with the dad of said hot shot. It is a true story. Honest, even though it is not on Wiki Leaks.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2012 20:58:15
 
Yojimbo

Posts: 176
Joined: Feb. 7 2011
From: Toronto, Canada

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Northern Rock

quote:

ORIGINAL: Northern Rock

quote:

And especially so since many English people aren't exactly welcoming to other nationalities


Could please tell from bases do you make that statement,have you been to England , what experience you base that on as its avery different one to mine growing up here in ENGLAND.

Craig McTaggart Hertfordshire England UK


I was also born in England. Are you telling me you have never seen or heard of people acting up towards other nationalities?

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The universe is indeed expanding - to get away from this planet.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2012 2:39:49
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Yojimbo

quote:

Hello Florian, you old sod. Long time no see.


Did I say that right?


ello mate ;-) nice to see you.. sure sounds right to me

I like that story, i must be getting old lol but yes i think respect its important


quote:

I was also born in England. Are you telling me you have never seen or heard of people acting up towards other nationalities?


thats not just in the uk is everywhere ...its a bit unfair to single out a country for something the whole world is guilty of...and when you brake it down its not the country...its not a national policy or laws that do this, the laws are all anti discrimination, racism and discrimination is illegal according to the law in certain free countries ...unfortunately this same freedom also allowes every idiots opinion to be heard

I am Romanian moved to a country in which i wasent born in.. when i was 14, if i wanted to see discrimination I could have seen it that way...but i never did....never gave it that much status...instead all i ever saw was a couple simple people (lets face if ones differences or accent or place where they were born is enough reason for someone to hate or discriminate...it can only come from a simple person)...so why on earth would it affect me ..didn't matter where i was from or where they were from...

_____________________________

Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2012 13:21:48
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to C. Vega

quote:

Come on guys....really? Eight pages of this nonsense???
There are clearly a few people here who really need to get out more often.
Sheesh.


discussing the relative merits of various flamenco artists seems like just about the right thing to be doing here.... Interesting to hear from different people about how various names are known/not known in different places, different opinions about cante, guitar etc. It's not getting too personal, noones trading insults, it all seems pretty harmless to me!

and I was out last night, and the night before, and a couple of nights in the week.... I don't think I can handle being out much more!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2012 14:42:25
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to kudo

quote:

quote:

He speaks fluent Spanish like a local yet the haters here don't believe him. the question is : does he speak the andalusian accent? I dont think so, it did not sound like it when i met him...


There are quite a few people around who are half-Spanish half-English etc. Some grew up here, some there, some a bit of both or went back and forth etc. Some are more relaxed about it than others.... Some speak perfect accented Spanish, some no Spanish, again it just depends on circumstances. And some of them are really good guitarists or dancers. Most of them are completely open and up front about their origins so it's not an issue.

The thing about accents, if you hear a parent or just grandparents, or even just spending time with locals over years and you've got an ear for it you can usually pick up an accent.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2012 14:50:18
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Anyone ever read Gerald Howson's book Flamencos of Cadiz Bay?
yes


quote:

I'm betting that if Paco de Lucia heard of a conversation like this he would go for the respect way
Well, I'm not as good as Paco .... but take a look back over the thread and check how many times I respected JM's teaching stuff. He has an amazing work ethic too.


quote:

This only serves to peak my interest about Juan Martin
good, I hope you judge his music solely on the basis of his musical ability, not on the basis of his publicity, as so many other people seem to.


quote:

Juan Martin, who I know does not play like Paco. Then again Paco does not play like Juan Martin.
If by this, and by the Felipe/Jeronimo story you mean to imply that JM is old school and PDL "new" or that I'm coming from an anti-old school and pro-modern point of view you wrong both about my tastes and about JM, who is well known for his rumbas and various musical mixtures and fusions etc.

I did a quick scout on YouTube, and honestly, I wasn't looking for anything to back up any point of view, just an open-minded browse, and this was the second vid I played:


To be fair, this was the first vid I clicked:


and here, in the third vid I clicked you can hear the notorious English in a Spanish accent, decide for yourself:
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2012 18:03:17
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