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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
if things get too bad, they apply for a bailout to the same people who fined them and get it without question cos they are too big to fail. We did the same thing in the U.S., Ron. The only thing I would say is that it is not an example of true capitalism and free enterprise, where individuals and businesses take risks and either succeed and reap the rewards or fail and suffer the losses. It is corporate welfare. I have always found it extremely hypocritical that some of the biggest corporate CEOs rail against "welfare mothers," "welfare queens," the "welfare state" etc. and then turn around and ask the government to bail them out with corporate welfare when they get their companies in a bind. This is one point of agreement between Deniz and me. These banks and corporations are happy to privatize gains, but they want to socialize losses. But, then, hypocricy has always been the homage that vice pays to virtue. Cheers, Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 28 2012 21:12:21
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH I have always found it extremely hypocritical that some of the biggest corporate CEOs rail against "welfare mothers," "welfare queens," the "welfare state" etc. and then turn around and ask the government to bail them out with corporate welfare when they get their companies in a bind. This is one point of agreement between Deniz and me. Nope. The fact that you cannot privatize losses or socialize gains is built in into capitalism and more than a true example of it. Hence i dont really care whether they get the money from welfare state or not. It is part of the rationale of capitalism* and the criticism of "greedy" banks has not understood what the purpose of this type of economy is (money, money, money). *) i already pointed this out earlier: "The economical logic is to take money from all the places which arent a source for money, like consumption (buy houses, ordinary people), and to put it into places which generate more money (where it is used as capital in the true sense - money that is used to generate more money), like banks or companies etc. Making the ordinary people poorer - less expenses for social healthcare, buildings, higher taxes on consumption etc - helps and is often a neccessity (like now) to get the economy going. This is revealing about the principles of this way of economy."
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Фламенко
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Date Jun. 29 2012 17:58:09
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)
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Don't be so sensitive, Deniz. I didn't say you were defending the USSR, and I'm beginning to wonder if you are trolling, since you like to bring up your distorted views of capitalism at every opportunity, as if you are just daring someone to disagree. I merely used it as an example to point out that distortions and perversions (such as privatized gains and socialized losses) are not built into capitalism, any more than distortions and perversions are built into socialism. You seem to be ideologically fixated on your own definition of capitalism, which you appear to have tailored in order to suit your extreme antipathy toward it. In doing so, you demonstrate that you really don't understand capitalism and the free-enterprise system upon which it is based. You have a right to your own opinion, Deniz, but you do not have a right to your own facts. Cheers, Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 29 2012 18:56:05
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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From thefreedictionary.com: quote:
capitalism [ˈkæpɪtəˌlɪzəm] n (Economics) an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, characterized by the freedom of capitalists to operate or manage their property for profit in competitive conditions Also called free enterprise private enterprise Leaving aside that in truth capitalism is not being keen at all after "competitive conditions", doing all it can to omitt such by the means of cartells and administrative engagement of customs, distributive and trade restrictions ... How does "private ownership of the means of production" come about, other than through foregone appropriation of peoples´labour surplus value? The blue-eyed imagination of a fair capitalism dismisses the unfair precondition capitalism comes in with inherently. You can only either have fair trade and economizing or capitalism. Fancying a fair capitalism is as conclusive like suggesting for chicken breeding crocodiles. - I am once again turned off by the usual interpretation of manipulated media which hardly ever name the shabbiness of corruption and legal limbo, calling yet the meanest of actions "failure" as if there just existed no intentional misuse among industrials and their serving officials. Like currently with that neo nazi killer group that was backed by the German intelligence service ( in the way common since post WWII ). One after the other details were revealed of how the service ignored and covered the killers´tour, and yet each and every time the media neatly talking about "failure". And now even that it turned out how the secret service destroyed the file in question after the case had leaked through to public, what is being said about the files destruction once again: "Failure"! If such ain´t persistant and ridiculous spoon feeding of a system that uses its affluent profits and powers, what is. Ruphus
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Date Jun. 30 2012 4:24:25
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elgreco
Posts: 247
Joined: Nov. 24 2010
From: San Francisco CA
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to jshelton5040)
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Obviously I was being sarcastic. Everybody is against a free lunch unless it hurts their business. I left Greece because I find a free lunch as hateful as anybody else. My father did the same as did my great grandfather who worked to build the railways. I left my folks, my friends, my way of life to come to freezing Chicago with 300$ in my pocket and a coat full of holes. Nobody clothed me for free. Quite the contrary. At the end I paid $45K for my master at the University of Chicago and I am still paying undergrad tuition loans. After 19 years I am proud to say that I pay more taxes than 88% of the US populous. You judge which folks work honestly, the townies or the immigrants and who deserves a pension. After getting into flamenco 2 years ago I have experienced many people in the flamenco scene trying to take advantage of my enthusiasm to make a buck. I will use Estebanana's term "predatory" art. Needless to say I have not received a single receipt from nobody. I do not mind, I just cringe when I hear artists talk about free lunch. D. quote:
ORIGINAL: jshelton5040 quote:
ORIGINAL: elgreco Hi John, (I know I am an exception. Most artists, luthiers, resellers, dancers, instructors declare their income and pay taxes) Tell me what to do. Do you want me to declare that income and pay taxes or do you want me to buy one of your guitars? I advise you to refrain from putting this kind of information on the internet where government swine can read it. In my opinion if you can avoid giving money to the government it helps both you and the economy. I donate the total selling price of two or more guitars every year to the state and federal government and I don't like it one bit. If I could spend that money buying materials and supplies it would benefit my suppliers, me and the economy instead of being wasted.
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Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other? Don Diego from San Fernando. Don Francisco from San Jose. Don Fernando from San Diego. Don Jose from San Bernardino. Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.
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Date Jul. 29 2012 5:39:55
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Morante
Posts: 2181
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
Its ridiculous the low prices that were paid for guitars just 30 years ago. And still they were to high for Spanish persons. Anders, you are absolutely right. Many years ago I decided to buy a good guitar. Ramirez prices seemed to be about 400.000 ptas. So I saved up until I had money and instead of my usual direct trip to Cádiz, went on a tour of Andalucia; Almería(Gerundino), Jaén(Jerónimo Peña). Granada(Bellido), Córdaba (Reyes). Sevilla(Barba), ending in Cádiz. First stop Almería. I could not believe the poverty of the barrio where Gerundino lived, nor the poverty of his house. At first he refused to sell me a guitar: said he only had 3 and they were for professionals and so were too expensive for me. Eventually, after a few glasses of wine, he showed me the guitarras and I ended up with the one I liked most, for 200,000ptas. Many years later, reading his biography, I realized that he had been ripped off for many years by a famous guitarist who bought much of his output cheap and sold them abroad, expensive. He lived on the edge of poverty, in spite of his universal fame. Such is life, the rich are rich and the poor are poor, uneducated and ripe for explotation
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Date Jan. 17 2014 16:21:52
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
Come on TomB. Thats too far out. No it isn't, as I lived in Spain for a short time in 1965 and the prices were what I could afford, being a professional student who loved the art. I could live in Madrid and take lessons, with all accommodations; food, lodging, and slight entertainment for about 150 US dollars a month. $50 for lessons, $20 for food, $30 for lodging, and the rest for everyday spending expenses. A Faustino Conde guitar was about $350 at the time and I couldn't afford it so I finally managed to buy a Ramirez and a Felix Manzanero for $200 each, and when I got back to the US I sold the Ramirez for $650, then ordered another one from Sr. Martinez who was manager of the Ramirez shop, at the time, and paid my mother back for most of the trip. And anytime you raise the economy of a country with something like the Euro you have everything else follow its path, like the cost of bread, etc. So right now, I could never afford to travel there, as the Madrid expenses are as high as Washington D.C. And D.C.'s prices are most higher than my town.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jan. 17 2014 17:41:09
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