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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH Hello, Ruphus. Welcome to the 21st century. To read your (and Deniz's) comments on capitalism, private enterprise, and the free market, one would think you guys are still living in the year 1848, when Marx's observations had some validity. Capitalism, however, developed in a way that Marx never imagined, and most of us, including those of us who do not lead (as Deniz states) an "extremely luxurious life," are better off as a result. I know this fact will not register with you guys, as you drink your ideological Kool Aid, but there it is. I will not comment this as it is yet again a silly comparison (as if any of us existed in 1848..), besides that a jumping into another topic which prevents any progress in the discussion and the usual trash talk ending. As far as my question above to you, it is still active. Considering the time i have put into this thread, i want to make sure im not talking with somebody who has no knowledge, and is only pretending it to have. I hope you understand. So again, what are those inner contradictions of capitalism and communism you have heard of? Ricardo, you are basically saying one should accept any **** that is surrounding one and needs to cope with what other people have set up for oneself as "life" (whether its fair or not depends on some things, dont you think?). Ill tell you what: people have a responsibility not only for themselves but the society in which they are living in, as they are a part of it and empowering it. As for the reaction to the 100 Euros, that would totally depend on in what kind of society I would live and what role money has in that society, and whether it exists at all in the first place (in which case it would be just a piece of paper, yielding no reaction from my side). About the greedy vs generous that was not my point, never said that, but we have passed the point to make any clarifications i think. And you all need to stop using history as an argument. It doesnt prove anything right or wrong. If there is a critical mass of people with a specific political aim and enough means to make it "reality" then it just happens. This doesnt tell anything whether the specific political aim is a true statement about anything in this world or if its just a fanatic political program. Each human behaviour has its defined purposes and along those you can assume certain actions that are able to fulfill these purposes, but that doesnt mean you can PREDICT human behaviour at all, because humans have different opinions (right and wrong ones) about how to do that and they can simply DECIDE to do an action you even KNOW of it is the wrong one.
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Date Jun. 21 2012 22:11:37
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)
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Internal contradictions (very brief summaries): A. capitalism: Marx stated that in their drive to increase profits, the owners of capital would lower workers' wages even more. With lower wages, workers would not have the income to buy the products produced by the capitalists, thus diminishing the capitalists profits. As profits diminished, many producers would go out of business, concentrating capital in fewer and fewer hands. Eventually, their drive for increased profits, with fewer and fewer workers to buy products, would concentrate capital to the point where the system would collapse. B. communism: Had a vision that the "new communist man" would work for the good of society and would not need incentives. When that did not work out, communist regimes enforced rigid rules, to the point where they forced the collectivization of agriculture (one example) and enforced unrealistic production quotas, and they liquidated those who did not comply. The iron rule of communist regimes resulted in very poor production and lack of individual freedom, to the point where the people took matters into their own hands and the regimes eventually collapsed. Communism claimed it would create the perfect society where all would live well and in harmony. In fact, it could not give people a decent standard of living, and it stripped people of individual freedom and dignity. The reality could not match the vision. Collapse. Study history, Deniz. NOW, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO ANSWER RICARDO'S QUESTION ABOUT WHAT YOUR VISION IS FOR A SYSTEM OVER THE NEXT 50 YEARS. WOULD YOU "CREATE A NEW WORLD ORDER TO CONTROL ALL AND MAKE IT FAIR," AS RICARDO SUGGESTED? WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER. Cheers, Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 22 2012 3:59:32
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ricardo)
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Bill, It is you who is dismissing facts and circumstances. In your alleged examples of socialism and communism you refuse to accept the actual differences to the model, and especially the sabotage to those pseudo examples. Just as you ignore the fact that your wellbeing as servant to a capitalist system won´t count, for exploiting societal systems will traditionally spoil their entourage for a reason. And that a general temporary lift of western living standard was the crumbs of material and labour ressources from exploited underdeveloped countries in the first place. Your setting apart of your living standard from the poor conditions there won´t dematerialize the economical connection. And now with the Third Wolrd drain drying out, the capitalist syndrom is back to increasingly affecting own people in the western world, which you might not be noticing much, but the middle and lower class everywhere in Europe and the USA without doubt do. I can only repeat myself: quote:
How anyone considering himself well-meaning to democractic values could state "nothing wrong" with an economizing method that openly aims for capital instead of for peoples´practical concerns and reasonable production and supply, is beyond me. quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo Here's an experiment guys, everybody needs to answer. You are walking outside alone, and you look down and find 100 euros....what do you do next? That says a lot. Ricardo You do not mention whether there be a chance to make out the person who lost the money. We just had a local example reported in the media over here. A refuse collector found over 500 000 USD worth of local currency in a plastic bag inside a trash can. Obviously one of the scarce old-fashioned sincere types he made out the owner and returned the money. The lofty owner, little appreciative of the mere refuse collector, didn´t feel like thanking all too much and in an arrogant way offered him a reward of 2000 bucks equivalent. The refuse collector rejected that generous offer and turned around. Will this answer your question in a way? Ruphus
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Date Jun. 22 2012 9:01:41
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to mrMagenta)
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quote:
Of course Marx was wrong about some things. That doesn't make the whole body of his criticism of Capitalism pointless and irrelevant. Of course, you are correct, MrMagenta, but what is pointless and irrevelant is to describe today's capitalism and the free market as if it were still 1848, at the time Marx was writing. Apparently there are some well-meaning people who think capitalism never evolved from the "dark, satanic mills" of Manchester. Marx was accurate in his description at the time. For people to describe capitalism today in the same terms Marx used requires jumping through ideological hoops. Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 22 2012 11:16:32
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ruphus)
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Ruphus, I appreciate the fact that you believe strongly in your point of view denouncing capitalism and the free-enterprise system, even though I disagree with your view and think the historical record clearly refutes it. I think your reasoning would have made sense at the time Marx was writing, in the 19th century. Capitalism has since evolved, though, and does not resemble your 19th century view of it. Regarding the points you make in your post, I have covered all of them in my previous posts on this thread, beginning with the first one where I defended capitalism, and the subsequent posts in response to particular issues. I will not bore everyone reading this thread (including me!) by repeating my arguments. They are already posted, and I suggest you go back and re-read them, as they answer your criticisms of capitalism. Let me just say that I enjoy and appreciate a lively discussion of politics, economics, and philosophy, and I am glad to see that you and others do too. Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 22 2012 14:00:59
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XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH quote:
I will not comment this as it is yet again a silly comparison (as if any of us existed in 1848..) Because you describe capitalism as it existed in 1848 when Marx was writing, not as it has evolved and exists today. It is your assumption that basic categories like price, money, commodity, work,... have changed. Of course they did NOT change. You mentioned higher wages and a better life. I never said that Marx was true in all his points. I only quoted (not even that, merely interpreting my own version of it) what ive learned from the first chapters of his "Capital" so far, where he does no more than to describe capitalism in its most basic skeleton structure. In other works he MAY make "predictions" that turned out wrong (btw i wouldnt be so sure about the higher wages, you would need to calculate in the low prices for buying goods from poorer countries, and you would need to extrapolate out the huge increase in productivity (which is caused by science, not capitalism) and inflation), but he was scientist enough that he SHOULD have known such predictions are "lucky" at best. But in all honesty, i dont see any need for such analysis as capitalism is not even able to meet the most basic demand of people (eating, housing, health). I know you would like to exclude any other region than the western states, but since we live in a globalized economy, where you can buy and sell goods and work around the globe, i will not let you get away with it. If the US for example had 0 trading with the abroad, then your comparison (back then and now) would make sense. Regarding Ricardos question, i know that question very well, and i have asked that myself too in the beginnings of thinking about political systems. The problem people have with this question is not a certain lack of knowledge. It is a problem of self-reflection. You have to distance yourself from the practical needs you have in whatever society you live, in order to achieve a somewhat objective theory about the society. If not, you will always turn around in circles within the rules of that society. Again, people WERE NOT ALWAYS LIKE THAT. They questioned their regimes (sometimes wrongly, sometimes rightly).
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Date Jun. 22 2012 17:46:26
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
As far as my question above to you, it is still active. Considering the time i have put into this thread, i want to make sure im not talking with somebody who has no knowledge, and is only pretending it to have. I hope you understand. So again, what are those inner contradictions of capitalism and communism you have heard of? I have answered your question, Deniz. You seem to be very bold in your "demand" for your questions to be answered, but you appear to be very timid and reluctant to answer questions others put to you, such as Ricardo's question, which I have repeated below: "So far what do you propose the world to do in the next 50 years hmmm? A new world order to control all and make it "fair" for EVERYONE regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it? Get real man or tell us the solution you propose for "the world". " Since Ricardo posed the question to you, you have avoided answering it. Anyone who criticizes capitalism as much as you do, and who claims to know what he is talking about, should have some idea of what he would replace it with. So, as Ricardo said: "Get real man or tell us the solution you propose for "the world". " And don't hide behind the pseudo-explanation about why you cannot answer it by stating, as you just did: "It is a problem of self-reflection. You have to distance yourself from the practical needs you have in whatever society you live, in order to achieve a somewhat objective theory about the society. " That is a cop-out. Many people have ideas about the type of society they would like to see without having a "problem of self-reflection" and having "to distance themselves from practical needs." You don't need to do that to develop an objective theory about society. Like you, I, too have put a lot of time into this thread, and I "want to make sure I'm not talking with somebody who has no knowledge, and is only pretending to have it." Cheers, Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 22 2012 18:05:44
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)
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quote:
Because the whole thing (economy) takes place IN THE INTEREST of those who produce AND consume (producers are always consumers, whereas not every consumer unfortunately has the ability to produce), there would be a GOOD REASON to work for it. The result would be neither a egoistic nor a altruistic society, or if anything it would be both at the same time, but never just one of them. That's a good beginning, Deniz. I think that in spite of our differences over political and economic philosophy, we could enjoy drinking a couple of beers together. Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 22 2012 19:07:00
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
One more time: Marx never stated that people should earn the same "regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it". I agree with you Ruphus, but I never stated that Marx wrote that "people should earn the same, regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it." I never said such a thing, and if you review my posts, you will not find any such statement by me. Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 23 2012 1:24:08
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
I know that you were quoting. And it would be just common how Ricardo come to insuniate regardless wages. It´s a classic after all. - Or did you see Deniz suggesting such? Deniz cleared it up with his response, Ruphus. I think we all understand our respective positions. Now, if we could just meet and have a couple of cold beers, I'm sure we would have a great time discussing many other things of mutual interest, such as flamenco. All three of you (Deniz, Ricardo, and you) could hammer me because I still prefer Sabicas over Paco de Lucia (even though I fully recognize PDL's masterful virtuosity). Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 23 2012 13:09:36
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