RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers

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Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)

Human behavior is very predictable IMO. Also, history repeats itself.

The assumption that only greedy are wealthy is wrong, as much as the idea that only the poor are generous. Life is not fair, that's a given. What matters is how you deal with what you DO have.

Here's an experiment guys, everybody needs to answer.

You are walking outside alone, and you look down and find 100 euros....what do you do next? That says a lot.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2012 18:24:46

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Hello, Ruphus. Welcome to the 21st century. To read your (and Deniz's) comments on capitalism, private enterprise, and the free market, one would think you guys are still living in the year 1848, when Marx's observations had some validity. Capitalism, however, developed in a way that Marx never imagined, and most of us, including those of us who do not lead (as Deniz states) an "extremely luxurious life," are better off as a result. I know this fact will not register with you guys, as you drink your ideological Kool Aid, but there it is.

I will not comment this as it is yet again a silly comparison (as if any of us existed in 1848..), besides that a jumping into another topic which prevents any progress in the discussion and the usual trash talk ending.
As far as my question above to you, it is still active. Considering the time i have put into this thread, i want to make sure im not talking with somebody who has no knowledge, and is only pretending it to have. I hope you understand. So again, what are those inner contradictions of capitalism and communism you have heard of?

Ricardo, you are basically saying one should accept any **** that is surrounding one and needs to cope with what other people have set up for oneself as "life" (whether its fair or not depends on some things, dont you think?). Ill tell you what: people have a responsibility not only for themselves but the society in which they are living in, as they are a part of it and empowering it. As for the reaction to the 100 Euros, that would totally depend on in what kind of society I would live and what role money has in that society, and whether it exists at all in the first place (in which case it would be just a piece of paper, yielding no reaction from my side). About the greedy vs generous that was not my point, never said that, but we have passed the point to make any clarifications i think.

And you all need to stop using history as an argument. It doesnt prove anything right or wrong. If there is a critical mass of people with a specific political aim and enough means to make it "reality" then it just happens. This doesnt tell anything whether the specific political aim is a true statement about anything in this world or if its just a fanatic political program. Each human behaviour has its defined purposes and along those you can assume certain actions that are able to fulfill these purposes, but that doesnt mean you can PREDICT human behaviour at all, because humans have different opinions (right and wrong ones) about how to do that and they can simply DECIDE to do an action you even KNOW of it is the wrong one.

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 21 2012 22:11:37

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)

Internal contradictions (very brief summaries):

A. capitalism: Marx stated that in their drive to increase profits, the owners of capital would lower workers' wages even more. With lower wages, workers would not have the income to buy the products produced by the capitalists, thus diminishing the capitalists profits. As profits diminished, many producers would go out of business, concentrating capital in fewer and fewer hands. Eventually, their drive for increased profits, with fewer and fewer workers to buy products, would concentrate capital to the point where the system would collapse.

B. communism: Had a vision that the "new communist man" would work for the good of society and would not need incentives. When that did not work out, communist regimes enforced rigid rules, to the point where they forced the collectivization of agriculture (one example) and enforced unrealistic production quotas, and they liquidated those who did not comply. The iron rule of communist regimes resulted in very poor production and lack of individual freedom, to the point where the people took matters into their own hands and the regimes eventually collapsed. Communism claimed it would create the perfect society where all would live well and in harmony. In fact, it could not give people a decent standard of living, and it stripped people of individual freedom and dignity. The reality could not match the vision. Collapse. Study history, Deniz.

NOW, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO ANSWER RICARDO'S QUESTION ABOUT WHAT YOUR VISION IS FOR A SYSTEM OVER THE NEXT 50 YEARS. WOULD YOU "CREATE A NEW WORLD ORDER TO CONTROL ALL AND MAKE IT FAIR," AS RICARDO SUGGESTED? WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 3:59:32

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

I will not comment this as it is yet again a silly comparison (as if any of us existed in 1848..)

Because you describe capitalism as it existed in 1848 when Marx was writing, not as it has evolved and exists today.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 4:11:36

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ricardo)

Bill,

It is you who is dismissing facts and circumstances.
In your alleged examples of socialism and communism you refuse to accept the actual differences to the model, and especially the sabotage to those pseudo examples.

Just as you ignore the fact that your wellbeing as servant to a capitalist system won´t count, for exploiting societal systems will traditionally spoil their entourage for a reason. And that a general temporary lift of western living standard was the crumbs of material and labour ressources from exploited underdeveloped countries in the first place.

Your setting apart of your living standard from the poor conditions there won´t dematerialize the economical connection.

And now with the Third Wolrd drain drying out, the capitalist syndrom is back to increasingly affecting own people in the western world, which you might not be noticing much, but the middle and lower class everywhere in Europe and the USA without doubt do.

I can only repeat myself:

quote:

How anyone considering himself well-meaning to democractic values could state "nothing wrong" with an economizing method that openly aims for capital instead of for peoples´practical concerns and reasonable production and supply, is beyond me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Here's an experiment guys, everybody needs to answer.

You are walking outside alone, and you look down and find 100 euros....what do you do next? That says a lot.

Ricardo

You do not mention whether there be a chance to make out the person who lost the money.

We just had a local example reported in the media over here.
A refuse collector found over 500 000 USD worth of local currency in a plastic bag inside a trash can.
Obviously one of the scarce old-fashioned sincere types he made out the owner and returned the money.
The lofty owner, little appreciative of the mere refuse collector, didn´t feel like thanking all too much and in an arrogant way offered him a reward of 2000 bucks equivalent.

The refuse collector rejected that generous offer and turned around.

Will this answer your question in a way?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 9:01:41

erictjie

Posts: 163
Joined: Apr. 11 2011

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ruphus)

if i found $500k , i will keep it for sure, why????? who the hell normal people will put $500k in cash unless it was ill gotten money or he was trying to avoid taxes. if a few K i will return it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 9:15:43

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to erictjie)

quote:

if i found $500k , i will keep it for sure, why????? who the hell normal people will put $500k in cash unless it was ill gotten money or he was trying to avoid taxes.

Hmmm....I posted a similar kind of thing before...

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=141514

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 9:40:08

val

Posts: 800
Joined: Apr. 4 2007
From: London

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

NOW, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO ANSWER RICARDO'S QUESTION ABOUT WHAT YOUR VISION IS FOR A SYSTEM OVER THE NEXT 50 YEARS. WOULD YOU "CREATE A NEW WORLD ORDER TO CONTROL ALL AND MAKE IT FAIR," AS RICARDO SUGGESTED? WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR YOUR ANSWER.

So many ideas and theories floating around here. For anyone to even attempt to answer a question about a new world order would require an in-depth understanding of what's happened in the world over the centuries. Power and control go hand in hand.

A good read, highlighting many of the issues, is the book "Democracy Kills" by Humphrey Hawksley, a BBC reporter who has extensively travelled and researched in the course of his work

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 9:55:32

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ricardo)

Correction!

I just enquired to make sure.
The intended reward for the finder was not 2000 bucks equivalent, but even just 200.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 10:16:59

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ricardo)

So called 'Free market advocates' when pressed, often go: 'then show me something better!' and go red in the face. None of us like being told that what we have been doing for a lifetime has been tinged by something dirty. We want a super clean self-image. I don't think idividuals always need to take the blame though, fingerpointing only seems to lock things in place. I'm optimistic about people. Basically we're all trying to do the right thing. But I'm pessimistic about where we are politically and ideologically.

The 'greedy corporate types' are painting a picture for themselves in which their actions are redeemed. They have ethics, most are NOT psychopaths, it's just that their ethics are skewed. It's not easy to live with yourself if you know for sure that your lifestyle is harmful to others, so you construct a world view which renders your way of life in a benevolent light, with trickle down effects and other abstract notions. This world view happens to be the norm in much of the western world, so all it takes to be spotless is to surf on the status quo. Who's to blame? We're all part of it. I think the best we can do is ask for a clear picture, and exercise some self criticism.

Adam Smith and David Ricardo did not envision todays economy any better than Marx. Besides.. these economists were people, It's silly to treat them as god-figures and adhere to their attached ideologies without scepticism.

Of course Marx was wrong about some things. That doesn't make the whole body of his criticism of Capitalism pointless and irrelevant. To question the endless growth paradigm does not make you a stalinist. That sort of black and white thinking doesn't get us anywhere.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 10:57:16

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

But I'm pessimistic about where we are politically and ideologically.

So am I and even though I dont have the solution I have my right to say stop. Because those who defend capitalism and democracy are defending a beast without a leash. Democracy doesnt exist anymore. Its just a word used to make us shut up and have fear of chaos.
In political filosophy they are starting to call our period the post-democratic period. Its now some decades old and politicians are not serving what they were supposed to do, the people, they are serving themselves and the money and power system. Its now a mob that cannot be devided. Its one.

If you study etymology (spelling) you se how the meaning of words change with time. A good example is anarchy. It once meant a certain political ideolgy where people were supposed to be equal and responsable for everyone. Nowadays if you ask 100 persons, 99 or 100 will say that it means chaos.
Maybe one day in lets say 150 - 200 years, the word democracy will mean tyranism.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 11:14:12

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

Of course Marx was wrong about some things. That doesn't make the whole body of his criticism of Capitalism pointless and irrelevant.

Of course, you are correct, MrMagenta, but what is pointless and irrevelant is to describe today's capitalism and the free market as if it were still 1848, at the time Marx was writing. Apparently there are some well-meaning people who think capitalism never evolved from the "dark, satanic mills" of Manchester. Marx was accurate in his description at the time. For people to describe capitalism today in the same terms Marx used requires jumping through ideological hoops.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 11:16:32

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to val)

quote:

So many ideas and theories floating around here. For anyone to even attempt to answer a question about a new world order would require an in-depth understanding of what's happened in the world over the centuries. Power and control go hand in hand.

I agree, Val. But I assume that someone who is so critical of the economic system under discussion would have an in-depth understanding of it. If he understands the system he is so critical of, he should have some idea of how he would replace it. Otherwise, it is just so much talk.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 11:20:13

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ricardo)

An example on "democracy" and actual powers from today:

The German supreme court just decided that physicians credited by health insurances and who receive gifts from pharmaceutical companies cannot be found guilty of corruptibility.

The case has been on a pharma consultant who was handing out checks of 18 000 EUR a piece to doctors who had been describing meds of the company in question.

The plea of the supreme court:
As the doctors had not been acting as office bearers nor as delegates of the health insurances, they could not be accounted for venalty.

Now, leaving aside the out of hand usury of the pharma combines and med supply firms who have led Hippocrates to twisting in his grave about the lowly squeezing off the people and undermining of just and reason by affluent bribe ...

Look at the unfounded logic and premisse in this spectaculary questionable decree, for as long as things only fit the bill.

According to this moonshine you can´t be corrupted as long as you receive your bribe as a private person.

Cheers on capitalism and its plenty funds for directing official interpretation and policies to demand.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 11:59:16

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ruphus)

Ruphus,

I appreciate the fact that you believe strongly in your point of view denouncing capitalism and the free-enterprise system, even though I disagree with your view and think the historical record clearly refutes it. I think your reasoning would have made sense at the time Marx was writing, in the 19th century. Capitalism has since evolved, though, and does not resemble your 19th century view of it.

Regarding the points you make in your post, I have covered all of them in my previous posts on this thread, beginning with the first one where I defended capitalism, and the subsequent posts in response to particular issues. I will not bore everyone reading this thread (including me!) by repeating my arguments. They are already posted, and I suggest you go back and re-read them, as they answer your criticisms of capitalism.

Let me just say that I enjoy and appreciate a lively discussion of politics, economics, and philosophy, and I am glad to see that you and others do too.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 14:00:59

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

I will not comment this as it is yet again a silly comparison (as if any of us existed in 1848..)

Because you describe capitalism as it existed in 1848 when Marx was writing, not as it has evolved and exists today.

It is your assumption that basic categories like price, money, commodity, work,... have changed. Of course they did NOT change. You mentioned higher wages and a better life. I never said that Marx was true in all his points. I only quoted (not even that, merely interpreting my own version of it) what ive learned from the first chapters of his "Capital" so far, where he does no more than to describe capitalism in its most basic skeleton structure. In other works he MAY make "predictions" that turned out wrong (btw i wouldnt be so sure about the higher wages, you would need to calculate in the low prices for buying goods from poorer countries, and you would need to extrapolate out the huge increase in productivity (which is caused by science, not capitalism) and inflation), but he was scientist enough that he SHOULD have known such predictions are "lucky" at best. But in all honesty, i dont see any need for such analysis as capitalism is not even able to meet the most basic demand of people (eating, housing, health). I know you would like to exclude any other region than the western states, but since we live in a globalized economy, where you can buy and sell goods and work around the globe, i will not let you get away with it. If the US for example had 0 trading with the abroad, then your comparison (back then and now) would make sense.

Regarding Ricardos question, i know that question very well, and i have asked that myself too in the beginnings of thinking about political systems. The problem people have with this question is not a certain lack of knowledge. It is a problem of self-reflection. You have to distance yourself from the practical needs you have in whatever society you live, in order to achieve a somewhat objective theory about the society. If not, you will always turn around in circles within the rules of that society. Again, people WERE NOT ALWAYS LIKE THAT. They questioned their regimes (sometimes wrongly, sometimes rightly).

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 17:46:26

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

As far as my question above to you, it is still active. Considering the time i have put into this thread, i want to make sure im not talking with somebody who has no knowledge, and is only pretending it to have. I hope you understand. So again, what are those inner contradictions of capitalism and communism you have heard of?

I have answered your question, Deniz. You seem to be very bold in your "demand" for your questions to be answered, but you appear to be very timid and reluctant to answer questions others put to you, such as Ricardo's question, which I have repeated below:

"So far what do you propose the world to do in the next 50 years hmmm? A new world order to control all and make it "fair" for EVERYONE regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it? Get real man or tell us the solution you propose for "the world". "

Since Ricardo posed the question to you, you have avoided answering it. Anyone who criticizes capitalism as much as you do, and who claims to know what he is talking about, should have some idea of what he would replace it with. So, as Ricardo said: "Get real man or tell us the solution you propose for "the world". "

And don't hide behind the pseudo-explanation about why you cannot answer it by stating, as you just did: "It is a problem of self-reflection. You have to distance yourself from the practical needs you have in whatever society you live, in order to achieve a somewhat objective theory about the society. " That is a cop-out. Many people have ideas about the type of society they would like to see without having a "problem of self-reflection" and having "to distance themselves from practical needs." You don't need to do that to develop an objective theory about society.

Like you, I, too have put a lot of time into this thread, and I "want to make sure I'm not talking with somebody who has no knowledge, and is only pretending to have it."

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 18:05:44

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

As for the reaction to the 100 Euros, that would totally depend on in what kind of society I would live and what role money has in that society, and whether it exists at all in the first place (in which case it would be just a piece of paper, yielding no reaction from my side). About the greedy vs generous that was not my point, never said that, but we have passed the point to make any clarifications i think.

That is NOT an answer sorry. You act as though you have been writting all along as someone who exists outside of society I guess? YOu feel a need to be placed in one to decide what to do? THe question was simple.

An Ruphus did not give an answer either but rather gave an different example and told us what SOME OTHER GUY did. Ron linked us to an old topic again about huge sum, although some other folks had interesting stories that relate to the question.

I am trying to get more to the point of individual behavior regardless of system in place is predictable. Some people give, others take, others share equally etc. Greedy vs generous wasn't the point yet it appears the main goal of capitalism or the way it's used now a days as a "system" is to allow the "greedy" to amass ALL it can leaving the rest with nothing. Generous people don't do that, unless you mean to imply that a generous person has no choice BUT to amass ALL the wealth as per capitalism...which makes no fuking sense.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 18:21:13

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)

It is not true that one has to have an alternative for each thing you criticize. You can criticize something in itself perfectly well.
I have given an answer in 2 different ways now and it is clear they have not been understood. Because of that the following will not be satisfying, but i want to answer your question because you answered mine:
The goal is not a "new world order to control all and make it "fair" for EVERYONE regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it?". It is to get a consciousness for the societal character of the goods (the things we produce are consumed by others and vice versa). The whole society would agree on those things need to be produced FIRST and THEN simply produce exactly that. The new products would be a result of decision. [In capitalism it is the other way round: companies constantly research on new products they think they can turn into profit FIRST and THEN throw it on the market to see if there is enough "able to pay" demand for it]. Because the whole thing (economy) takes place IN THE INTEREST of those who produce AND consume (producers are always consumers, whereas not every consumer unfortunately has the ability to produce), there would be a GOOD REASON to work for it. The result would be neither a egoistic nor a altruistic society, or if anything it would be both at the same time, but never just one of them.

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 18:43:34

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
YOu feel a need to be placed in one to decide what to do? THe question was simple.

Yes it was and im trying to make clear to you that money, as implied in your question, is not something that naturally would exist, especially not in a rational society as it is simply not capable of fulfilling anybodies need. It would have no use at all, like a car without any engine. If you want to evaluate the answers given to you at all you would need to KNOW what money is first. In THIS society money is the ONLY way to "purchase" ANYthing useful. Because of that there would need to be some good reasons to NOT pick it up and put it in your pocket (and there actually are some reasons not to, but i will stop now because really the question is not a good one).

About greedy. If you noticed, i dont use such terms, i use economical terms, and i only used it once to direct you to the fact it refers to a hard economic fact: no money, no life. I do not care whether people are generous or not!!!

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 18:51:59

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Because the whole thing (economy) takes place IN THE INTEREST of those who produce AND consume (producers are always consumers, whereas not every consumer unfortunately has the ability to produce), there would be a GOOD REASON to work for it. The result would be neither a egoistic nor a altruistic society, or if anything it would be both at the same time, but never just one of them.

That's a good beginning, Deniz. I think that in spite of our differences over political and economic philosophy, we could enjoy drinking a couple of beers together.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 19:07:00

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ricardo)

OK, I'll bite.

Assuming the rightful owner of the €100 was not ascertainable, I would have the note changed into five €20 notes. Then I would give one of the notes to each of the next five good street musicians I came across. Anyone who plays as well as the girl who was playing violin at the foot of the Roman bridge in Cordoba night before last deserves to get paid for all the hard work put in. Bad or mediocre musicians would get a euro or two.

Why should you think I would do this? It's what i've been doing with my own money, without any €100 windfall in Florence, Venice, London and Cordoba.

But I can afford it.

If I were broke, and I assure you I have been broke, I would hoard the €100 and buy food as cheaply as possible. I've done that,too.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2012 21:01:39

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ricardo)

Ricardo and Bill,

One more time: Marx never stated that people should earn the same "regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it".
In the opposite: Unlike in capitalism with its profits regardless of efforts, Marx naturally meant that people should earn in relation to their output.

Could you please let this old, uneducated demagogy aside, please?

- Or alternatively show us where Marx would hat uttered such nonesense?
-

What the 100$ is concerned, I have ideals, and provided a way to make out the owner will return the money to him.

For me some things are rather simple; like a premisse in the sense of "What you wouldn´t want to be done to you, don´t do to others".

Seems just self-evident to me.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2012 0:40:59

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

One more time: Marx never stated that people should earn the same "regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it".

I agree with you Ruphus, but I never stated that Marx wrote that "people should earn the same, regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it." I never said such a thing, and if you review my posts, you will not find any such statement by me.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2012 1:24:08

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)

Hi Bill,

I apologize!
Thought that in your post quoted below there was aim on the "fair" for EVERYONE regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it"- sequence.

But obviously you were about a proposal from Deniz in general.

Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

... you appear to be very timid and reluctant to answer questions others put to you, such as Ricardo's question, which I have repeated below:

"So far what do you propose the world to do in the next 50 years hmmm? A new world order to control all and make it "fair" for EVERYONE regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it? Get real man or tell us the solution you propose for "the world".

Cheers,

Bill

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2012 10:32:47

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

Thought that in your post quoted below there was aim on the "fair" for EVERYONE regardless what they do or don't do to deserve it"- sequence.

Hi Ruphus,

I was actually quoting Ricardo's question to Deniz. And Ricardo was not quoting Marx, he was just asking Deniz if that was what he (Deniz) would propose as part of a system to replace the current system.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2012 10:46:16

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to BarkellWH)

Hi Bill,

I know that you were quoting. And it would be just common how Ricardo come to insuniate regardless wages. It´s a classic after all. - Or did you see Deniz suggesting such?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2012 11:45:22

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

I know that you were quoting. And it would be just common how Ricardo come to insuniate regardless wages. It´s a classic after all. - Or did you see Deniz suggesting such?

Deniz cleared it up with his response, Ruphus. I think we all understand our respective positions. Now, if we could just meet and have a couple of cold beers, I'm sure we would have a great time discussing many other things of mutual interest, such as flamenco. All three of you (Deniz, Ricardo, and you) could hammer me because I still prefer Sabicas over Paco de Lucia (even though I fully recognize PDL's masterful virtuosity).

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 23 2012 13:09:36

erictjie

Posts: 163
Joined: Apr. 11 2011

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 24 2012 12:16:40

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2012 10:22:15

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Ricardo)

Hello Bill,

I´m sure that we would entertain ourselves greatly in a meeting!
-

European Jews were forced historically to engage into the lending business. And it thus shouldn´t wonder if there is high share of theirs in the finance business today.
However, explicitely mentioning this, making it inevitably sound to the humble ear as if there was something conspiratively due or so, won´t help a reasonable evaluation of todays mess.

Eventhough tight networks like among Jews only worsen practises like price gauging or exchange manipulation, it isn´t really relevant what religious or ethnic inclusion bankers have.

What seems worth noting to me however is that indeed: These days you won´t offiicially end up in jail for political conviction, but the trailing and persecution ist still there and more meticulously at that than ever.

Depending on your degree of realization and public reach, you will encounter restrictive enough phenomenons on your way and career. Including outrageous treats through completely untouched holdings and combines and your outlawing in legal cases.

With the over-blown sniffing apparatus of pursue even superficial critiques will relentlessly be kept under radar and quietly pestered every once in a while. Even holders of official positions like unionists or members of less aligned / young parliamental parties.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 24 2012 12:16:37