Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers

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gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers

Just a question concerning Spanish Luthiers.

I think that economical crisis will "hit" and the people there.

Ι hope I'm wrong!

So, I wonder if it will withstand all that loss.

The demand is dwindling due to lack of cash.

And believe me I know from crisis.

I'm Greek!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2012 21:39:08

Pingaloka

Posts: 42
Joined: Jun. 9 2011
From: Granada, España

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

I don't know what will happen. People here see in Greece the future of Spain.
And from what I see, each day that passes.... things get worse. More and more cutting on education, public health, science, investigation....but no cutting where they should eg: "defense" (militar).
The Church in Spain is the biggest real state owner, it owns even more than banks, and surprisingly they do not have to pay any property tax.
HIghest rate on unemployment in the whole of Europe. I see friends closing their bussiness, and the youth...no future.
Meanwhile we have the king of Spain, (married to a greek btw, our queen) spending money on haunting elephants in Botsuana, all these corrupted politians that own the banks, stealing and stealing every day, and nothing happens.

And don't think this answers your question, but this is the actual panorama and the future, from how things are now, doesn't seem very bright. Hope I'm wrong....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2012 22:07:47

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Pingaloka)

You know that south Europe has been bullied.

Greece will remain in Euro.

The same with Spain.

Here all the things that you describe happen two years ago.

I'm sure that all will end soon, either way!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 30 2012 22:30:05

erictjie

Posts: 163
Joined: Apr. 11 2011

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

what recession??? here in oz , the mining and the banking making akilling, but us the ordinary people are suffering from high cost. the rich are getting astronomically filthy rich but the average are considered the new poors

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 0:44:10

shaun

Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

I don't think you will see very many luthiers leaving the business because of the crisis unless they decide to leave the country. The availability of the high end guitars will be probably be greater. Like somebody that ordered a Reyes years ago may not be able to pay for it today. Or, that same person may sell their collection to pay for the Reyes. There are always guitarists out there to buy the guitars it just might be a different guitarist.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 2:05:41

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

God this is so depressing. We're just trying to make guitars.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 2:53:32

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to shaun)

quote:

I don't think you will see very many luthiers leaving the business because of the crisis unless they decide to leave the country. The availability of the high end guitars will be probably be greater. Like somebody that ordered a Reyes years ago may not be able to pay for it today. Or, that same person may sell their collection to pay for the Reyes. There are always guitarists out there to buy the guitars it just might be a different guitarist.

Ι wish nothing will happen!

But otherwise will be forced to drop prices and probably the quality of construction???

Maybe our great luthiers in here might answer....

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Spyros

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 4:14:47

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

If this continues a few years more, There will be very few of us left.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 7:38:40

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

They way the Euro is going, Success will be to those who can stage them selves on the international market. Things are getting pretty cheap if you don't use the Euro.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 7:58:37

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

I'm in Rome at the moment. Reading the editorial pages of the International Herald Tribune it seems the elite have figured out that the sh1t has hit the fan --"the stability of European Institutions such as the European Central Bank is in question"--but they haven't a clue what to do about it.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 8:07:33

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

quote:

They way the Euro is going, Success will be to those who can stage them selves on the international market. Things are getting pretty cheap if you don't use the Euro.

I agree and this benefits the citizen in euro currency country who is going to buy a guitar in a country with national currency.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 8:25:08

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

guys, you´re just making philosofy out of missery. Fact are that a lot fewer people are buying and not just guitars. Its a psycological neurosis based on fear.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 10:01:52

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

guys, you´re just making philosofy out of missery. Fact are that a lot fewer people are buying and not just guitars. Its a psycological neurosis based on fear.

Anders, the point of this thread is only for Luthiers.

I'm not talking gennerally about planet crisis.

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Spyros

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 10:31:34

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

You cannot seperate one product from the rest. Its all linked together and the more a product is away from direct needs like food and a home the more complicated things are for the seller. My neighbour sells jewells and his story is exactly the same as any Spanish guitarmaker story 2012. This year has had a drop in 60 - 70% in sales.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 12:17:23

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Ι know Anders. But i specified my post to Luthiers. Cause if we want to talk generally we will need ten pages in this post!

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Spyros

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 12:58:33

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

Friend of mine has one of those "food trucks" and he told me that during the last crisis 2008, there was no change in his business. People always buy food.
Whereas all other businesses i talked had a big loss.

Agree with Anders here 100%
Doesn't matter if you are Luthier or Car Dealer.
You will experience the same drop.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 13:35:30

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Maybe all the Spanish guitar builders could get together and form The Federation of Spanish Luthiers and then claim they are a national asset and "too important to fail" and get bailed out by Germany for say a billion euros?

Come on it's only a billion....sheesh, peanuts in comparison with the banks.

Loose change IMO.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 13:41:05

shaun

Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

I think I'm a bit optimistic about it. We have been fairly sheltered from the crisis here in Canada, especially in Alberta.

When I was in Sevilla earlier this year, I found that a third of the shops I wanted to check out had closed. But none of those were guitar shops. The stories I've heard regarding guitar makers has been that sometimes somebody gives up the guitar because they can't afford it anymore but there has always been somebody else to buy it right away. The guitar makers on the forum may have other stories. My hope has been that the makers have not been affected by this in the same way as other industries. If we lose skilled luthiers and, as a result, guitarists buy more factory guitars it would be bad for everybody.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 14:20:20

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

Shaun, Guitarbuilders are indeed very affected by what is going on and it all goes together with the economical bubble that disappeared, leaving Spain with houseprises that are 2 - 3 times overrated, meaning that Spaniards have no money and the price of everything has gone up so much that Spanish products incl. guitars are to expensive.
I should be doing like everyone else, shut up and intent to tell people that we are all doing well, but it would be a lye and lying doesnt do anything good in the long run.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 15:55:49

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Υou're right Anders.

All those who doing this are wrong, cause all this will surely revealed in the near future.

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Spyros

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 16:04:58

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 16:09:02

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

(look at USA with trillion dollar debt and still going)

Different situations...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 16:29:22

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

I'm in Rome at the moment. Reading the editorial pages of the International Herald Tribune it seems the elite have figured out that the sh1t has hit the fan

......of course the smell is ALL OVER ! :-)

ciao,
giambattista (south Italy.....more or less 450 km from Rome! :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 17:10:51

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 17:53:48

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

why is Germany doing ok but not Italy, Greece, Spain?

Because they work and pay their taxes and actually have some fiscal responsibility.

wrong!... it is because Italians, Greeks and Spanish we all like to eat "sea food".... Germans like more the potatoes!.... this sesms to me e more serious ansuer!
:-))

come on!... you are kidding?!

ciao
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 19:30:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

So this economic crisis has not affected guitar prices so there is obviously enough demand for flamenco guitars still. Otherwise by simple rules of supply & demand the prices would go lower.

IMHO, you´re totally wrong in all that you write, but especially in this one. Its a question of pride. We dont sell cheaper to reach tourists trying to get a bargain out of our missery.
Did your friend go to Italy with the idea of getting a Ferrari half price????? Its better to be out of business then being treated like a beggar.

Sorry, Nealf, but what you write sounds like an old fashion blood sucker

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 20:48:37

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

I pay 40% income tax, on top of that there is VAT and thats why my country is not in a hole.

Where are you Nealf ?

Very interesting thread guys.

Here in Granada prices have been rising. I was in a bar on the plaza the other day when they charged me 3 euros a glass of wine and no tapa. I asked why so much ? They said it's a tourist bar now. Before it was where we locals went. Still I got a tapa after insisting and paid my 3 euros and left. Next bar we got an amazing 8 euro 3 course meal with bottle of wine. So many local bars closing and tourist bars opening ! We dont go out much these days, places are empty.

The record store on Gran Via told me the other day if it had not been for a few of my foro friends ( thanks rice cracker and tony) coming in and buying up a whole heap of stock, they would have had made nothing that month.

Times have always been tough for musicians, you never know how it will pan out, just as you despair another job comes along, you keep going, you juggle the bills. Now it seems the whole country is living like this.

Nealf you cant blame the little people for this, we dont make much so we dont pay much tax, we pay the same VAT as everyone else on our purchases. We paid into pensions we have lost, our savings are worth nothing, we cant afford social security without work and the rich have just got a hell of a lot richer.

Oh God pass the Rioja think I need a drink !

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 20:51:54

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Frankly I'm fed-up with this moaning ... the FREE LUNCH is OVER.

The Greeks are crying but ask how many of them paid any taxes, majority of economy was cash and no one declared anything.

On top of that it was a total social state with people retiring from jobs at 50 with full pensions .... hairdressing was considered a "hazardous occupation" because of the solutions used to dye and perm hair ... so you retire at 50 with full state pension ... which other country in the world allows that??

The true story is you dig a hole and put yourself in it, find ways not to pay taxes, then expect free govt money and complain when you don't get it .... why is Germany doing ok but not Italy, Greece, Spain?

Because they work and pay their taxes and actually have some fiscal responsibility.

I pay 40% income tax, on top of that there is VAT and thats why my country is not in a hole.

Its not a crime to be rich, its the rich who create jobs instead of the bums on the streets who refuse to pay taxes and then expect free govt handouts.

Europe crows about 1% GDP whilst Angola (Africas ****-hole) enjoys 8% GDP growth .... and speaking of jobs why would I hire a European at 30 Euros an hour when I can pay 10 Chinese 3 Euros a day to do the same work?? And I'm talking educated university graduates ..... can someone hear the fat lady singing a Siguiriyas .... and she's singing in Greek.

Probably you have not read the latest researches about who works more in Europe and about how much money Germany owes to Greece.

I really want to know where are you from to make you a very briefing analysis.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2012 22:43:51

shaun

Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

Nealf,
Germany's economy is strong because they are Europe's biggest exporter. It's not their own money that's driving their economy. During times of economic hardship the wealthy like to show off. That means more German luxury cars sold to American CEOs.

Anders,
It's good to hear an honest perspective. Although a little worrying.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 0:14:43

stpercival

Posts: 11
Joined: Oct. 21 2010

RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to gounaro)

@ Nealf Supply and demand creates jobs not rich people. Rich people creating jobs is called trickle-down-economics and it has never worked. In America the right wing philosophy states that the rich should not have to pay their fair share of taxes because this left over money helps them creates jobs...what a laugh. There are more rich individuals on the planet now than ever before, yet look at the state of world economics. In the end supply and demand creates jobs, not the rich.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2012 0:17:20