RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Full Version)

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BarkellWH -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 24 2012 12:52:19)

quote:

I´m sure that we would entertain ourselves greatly in a meeting!


Ruphus,

Especially over a couple of beers!

I just want to clarify that your reference to European Jews was responding to Erictjie's post above. I don't want anyone to think that I made any reference to Jews in my posts. Thanks for allowing me to make that clarification in your post.

Cheers,

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 25 2012 20:46:18)

quote:

And it would be just common how Ricardo come to insuniate regardless wages. It´s a classic after all. - Or did you see Deniz suggesting such?


I am still not 100% on what Deniz wants for the world, but it's ok....I will continue to live on the fringes of any "system" I am aware and simply play my guitar for free or get paid for it whether it's $0.01 streamed over spotify or $3000 for a solo concert and workshop...easier than to complain about what everyone else is doing around me.

Ricardo



Ron.M -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 25 2012 21:16:49)

Hey Ricardo, that casual job you had selling fireworks sounded OK and fun to me if you had a bit of spare time.
The only worry these days I suppose would be carrying them in a rucksack....

(Note to self: " Oooooh! bad taste joke man....you're banned for 30 days you bozo...")

cheers,

Ron



Ricardo -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 26 2012 17:15:48)

quote:

Hey Ricardo, that casual job you had selling fireworks sounded OK and fun to me if you had a bit of spare time.


Man, you have no idea...what people are willing to spend to light **** on fire...small cardboard tubes with gunpowder that only made showers of colored sparks for a few seconds. The cash it's self would have burned longer, no joke! [:D][:D]



FullMetalGuitarist -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 26 2012 17:35:24)

Went quickly through the topic.

As a person who was born in USSR let me assure you there's nothing , not a single thing good in practical marxism/comunism.

And how jews came here? I'm not a jew but those medieval ideas such as the "jew world-wide conspiracy" simply make me laugh.

Are there still inquisitors hunting witches out there ?



Ron.M -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 26 2012 17:42:32)

quote:

Man, you have no idea...what people are willing to spend to light **** on fire...small cardboard tubes with gunpowder that only made showers of colored sparks for a few seconds. The cash it's self would have burned longer, no joke!


LOL!

At the recent Queen's Jubilee Concert in London, they set off 5000 high quality fireworks in only 4 minutes!

One thing that's true about what you say Ricardo, is that no matter how tough times are, the last thing folk will cut down on is their fun and entertainment.

If you feel happy because you just bought a new house, you want to go out and celebrate and if you feel miserable because your house got repossessed you are persuaded by friends to go out and party to forget about it all for an evening.

That's why the good pubs and clubs are always busy.

cheers,

Ron



Ron.M -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 28 2012 20:24:07)

OK, can someone explain this to me as a simpleton?

Barclays Bank get fined $453,000,000 for fiddling the Libor rates.

This makes the bank poorer and if things get too bad, they apply for a bailout to the same people who fined them in the first place and get it without question cos they are too big to fail.

Don't really understand macro economics...[:-]

cheers,

Ron



BarkellWH -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 28 2012 21:12:21)

quote:

if things get too bad, they apply for a bailout to the same people who fined them and get it without question cos they are too big to fail.


We did the same thing in the U.S., Ron. The only thing I would say is that it is not an example of true capitalism and free enterprise, where individuals and businesses take risks and either succeed and reap the rewards or fail and suffer the losses. It is corporate welfare. I have always found it extremely hypocritical that some of the biggest corporate CEOs rail against "welfare mothers," "welfare queens," the "welfare state" etc. and then turn around and ask the government to bail them out with corporate welfare when they get their companies in a bind. This is one point of agreement between Deniz and me. These banks and corporations are happy to privatize gains, but they want to socialize losses. But, then, hypocricy has always been the homage that vice pays to virtue.

Cheers,

Bill



marrow3 -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 28 2012 22:08:06)

quote:

We did the same thing in the U.S., Ron. The only thing I would say is that it is not an example of true capitalism and free enterprise, where individuals and businesses take risks and either succeed and reap the rewards or fail and suffer the losses. It is corporate welfare. I have always found it extremely hypocritical that some of the biggest corporate CEOs rail against "welfare mothers," "welfare queens," the "welfare state" etc. and then turn around and ask the government to bail them out with corporate welfare when they get their companies in a bind. This is one point of agreement between Deniz and me. These banks and corporations are happy to privatize gains, but they want to socialize losses. But, then, hypocricy has always been the homage that vice pays to virtue.


Thanks for saying that, Bill.

Also tax avoidance / offshoring big issue. IMO, the social contract is the difference between now and carrying a gun around in your back pocket to protect everything you own.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 28 2012 22:40:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: marrow3

the social contract is the difference between now and carrying a gun around in your back pocket to protect everything you own.

You mean you don't carry a gun in your back pocket? That's standard practice in my area of the US.



XXX -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 29 2012 17:58:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
I have always found it extremely hypocritical that some of the biggest corporate CEOs rail against "welfare mothers," "welfare queens," the "welfare state" etc. and then turn around and ask the government to bail them out with corporate welfare when they get their companies in a bind. This is one point of agreement between Deniz and me.


Nope. The fact that you cannot privatize losses or socialize gains is built in into capitalism and more than a true example of it. Hence i dont really care whether they get the money from welfare state or not. It is part of the rationale of capitalism* and the criticism of "greedy" banks has not understood what the purpose of this type of economy is (money, money, money).

*) i already pointed this out earlier: "The economical logic is to take money from all the places which arent a source for money, like consumption (buy houses, ordinary people), and to put it into places which generate more money (where it is used as capital in the true sense - money that is used to generate more money), like banks or companies etc. Making the ordinary people poorer - less expenses for social healthcare, buildings, higher taxes on consumption etc - helps and is often a neccessity (like now) to get the economy going. This is revealing about the principles of this way of economy."



BarkellWH -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 29 2012 18:25:22)

quote:

The fact that you cannot privatize losses or socialize gains is built in into capitalism and more than a true example of it. Hence i dont really care whether they get the money from welfare state or not. It is part of the rationale of capitalism*


It is no more "built into capitalism" than Stalin's show-trials and terror were "built into socialism." It is a perversion of true capitalism, just as Stalin's trials and terror were a perversion of socialism. In fact, neither represents the ideal model of capitalism or socialism respectively.

Cheers,

Bill



XXX -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 29 2012 18:41:01)

Bill, im not defending the USSR or whomever yet you are the one always going offtopic in that direction. Having said that im pretty sure that a true analysis of the USSR would contain more information than your ideological two liner. Sometimes i cant tell if you are seriously interested in politics or just want to troll me to write and waste more time with such your posts like above, which contain no reasoning btw.



BarkellWH -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 29 2012 18:56:05)

Don't be so sensitive, Deniz. I didn't say you were defending the USSR, and I'm beginning to wonder if you are trolling, since you like to bring up your distorted views of capitalism at every opportunity, as if you are just daring someone to disagree.

I merely used it as an example to point out that distortions and perversions (such as privatized gains and socialized losses) are not built into capitalism, any more than distortions and perversions are built into socialism. You seem to be ideologically fixated on your own definition of capitalism, which you appear to have tailored in order to suit your extreme antipathy toward it. In doing so, you demonstrate that you really don't understand capitalism and the free-enterprise system upon which it is based.

You have a right to your own opinion, Deniz, but you do not have a right to your own facts.

Cheers,

Bill



XXX -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 29 2012 19:26:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Don't be so sensitive, Deniz. I didn't say you were defending the USSR, and I'm beginning to wonder if you are trolling, since you like to bring up your distorted views of capitalism at every opportunity, as if you are just daring someone to disagree.

I merely used it as an example to point out that distortions and perversions (such as privatized gains and socialized losses) are not built into capitalism, any more than distortions and perversions are built into socialism. You seem to be ideologically fixated on your own definition of capitalism, which you appear to have tailored in order to suit your extreme antipathy toward it. In doing so, you demonstrate that you really don't understand capitalism and the free-enterprise system upon which it is based.


you have never learned to reason your assumptions did you? Since "we" have always been the good guys and those behind the iron curtain the bad ones.

quote:

You have a right to your own opinion, Deniz, but you do not have a right to your own facts.


you are so funny. opinions that dont match the fact ARE NOT WORTH TO HAVE.



Ruphus -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jun. 30 2012 4:24:25)

From thefreedictionary.com:
quote:

capitalism [ˈkæpɪtəˌlɪzəm]
n
(Economics) an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, characterized by the freedom of capitalists to operate or manage their property for profit in competitive conditions Also called free enterprise private enterprise


Leaving aside that in truth capitalism is not being keen at all after "competitive conditions", doing all it can to omitt such by the means of cartells and administrative engagement of customs, distributive and trade restrictions ...

How does "private ownership of the means of production" come about, other than through foregone appropriation of peoples´labour surplus value?

The blue-eyed imagination of a fair capitalism dismisses the unfair precondition capitalism comes in with inherently.

You can only either have fair trade and economizing or capitalism. Fancying a fair capitalism is as conclusive like suggesting for chicken breeding crocodiles.
-

I am once again turned off by the usual interpretation of manipulated media which hardly ever name the shabbiness of corruption and legal limbo, calling yet the meanest of actions "failure" as if there just existed no intentional misuse among industrials and their serving officials.

Like currently with that neo nazi killer group that was backed by the German intelligence service ( in the way common since post WWII ).
One after the other details were revealed of how the service ignored and covered the killers´tour, and yet each and every time the media neatly talking about "failure".

And now even that it turned out how the secret service destroyed the file in question after the case had leaked through to public, what is being said about the files destruction once again: "Failure"!

If such ain´t persistant and ridiculous spoon feeding of a system that uses its affluent profits and powers, what is.

Ruphus



elgreco -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jul. 28 2012 3:24:05)

Hi John,

I am a Greek guy that has put some money on the side to buy a Shelton guitar. The money came from gigs and private lessons which of course I never declared to the Greek government. (I know I am an exception. Most artists, luthiers, resellers, dancers, instructors declare their income and pay taxes) Tell me what to do. Do you want me to declare that income and pay taxes or do you want me to buy one of your guitars?

D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf

Frankly I'm fed-up with this moaning ... the FREE LUNCH is OVER.


Nealf, you are a breath of fresh air. Thank you for saying what many of us feel. I loathe politicians and government swine. They're the ones who have put us in this mess not the bankers or other businessmen who are only trying to make some money.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jul. 28 2012 14:35:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elgreco

Hi John,
(I know I am an exception. Most artists, luthiers, resellers, dancers, instructors declare their income and pay taxes) Tell me what to do. Do you want me to declare that income and pay taxes or do you want me to buy one of your guitars?


I advise you to refrain from putting this kind of information on the internet where government swine can read it.

In my opinion if you can avoid giving money to the government it helps both you and the economy. I donate the total selling price of two or more guitars every year to the state and federal government and I don't like it one bit. If I could spend that money buying materials and supplies it would benefit my suppliers, me and the economy instead of being wasted.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 29 2012 4:14:27)

[Deleted by Admins]



elgreco -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jul. 29 2012 5:39:55)

Obviously I was being sarcastic. Everybody is against a free lunch unless it hurts their business. I left Greece because I find a free lunch as hateful as anybody else. My father did the same as did my great grandfather who worked to build the railways. I left my folks, my friends, my way of life to come to freezing Chicago with 300$ in my pocket and a coat full of holes. Nobody clothed me for free. Quite the contrary. At the end I paid $45K for my master at the University of Chicago and I am still paying undergrad tuition loans. After 19 years I am proud to say that I pay more taxes than 88% of the US populous. You judge which folks work honestly, the townies or the immigrants and who deserves a pension. After getting into flamenco 2 years ago I have experienced many people in the flamenco scene trying to take advantage of my enthusiasm to make a buck. I will use Estebanana's term "predatory" art. Needless to say I have not received a single receipt from nobody. I do not mind, I just cringe when I hear artists talk about free lunch.

D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: elgreco

Hi John,
(I know I am an exception. Most artists, luthiers, resellers, dancers, instructors declare their income and pay taxes) Tell me what to do. Do you want me to declare that income and pay taxes or do you want me to buy one of your guitars?


I advise you to refrain from putting this kind of information on the internet where government swine can read it.

In my opinion if you can avoid giving money to the government it helps both you and the economy. I donate the total selling price of two or more guitars every year to the state and federal government and I don't like it one bit. If I could spend that money buying materials and supplies it would benefit my suppliers, me and the economy instead of being wasted.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 17 2014 11:12:46)

[Deleted by Admins]



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 17 2014 12:40:44)

quote:

@ Nealf Supply and demand creates jobs not rich people. Rich people creating jobs is called trickle-down-economics and it has never worked. In America the right wing philosophy states that the rich should not have to pay their fair share of taxes because this left over money helps them creates jobs...what a laugh. There are more rich individuals on the planet now than ever before, yet look at the state of world economics. In the end supply and demand creates jobs, not the rich.


There are so many things that can be attributed to loss of economy these days. Capital enterprise is not the culprit here, it's mis management of what we have that causes pain in the economy. What I've noticed for my own perspective is that people overspend on their special needs or desire to be comfortable.

It's good if you can do it but there are certain restrictions that we should have... to be better managers of our personal economy. And I think this issue pretty well tells us that we need to get off credit and save some economy for a rainy day.

Guitars will always be here but in price lines that the economy can afford. Spanish guitars were doing fine on the tourist dollar until they joined the European Common Market, which drove prices for high end guitars out of sight.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 17 2014 15:16:59)

quote:

Spanish guitars were doing fine on the tourist dollar until they joined the European Common Market, which drove prices for high end guitars out of sight.


Come on TomB. Thats to far out. You sound like an old fashion imperialist who has lost his colonies.
Yes Spanish guitars were cheap especially if you had yankee dollares to pay with. The reason was that Spain was a very poor country with a huge majority of very poor persons and some very few very rich ones. Spain was WAY behind the rest of the western world and it still is in some aspects.
Its ridiculous the low prices that were paid for guitars just 30 years ago. And still they were to high for Spanish persons. Why do you think we have so few old quality instruments here? because they were all sold to other parts of the world. Especially to the USA, where the biggest money was. It was just the same story as it has been with all other poor countrys: The rich buy cheap and sell expensive.
Prices were not driven up when Spain entered the EU. prices came up to where they should have been many decades before.



C. Vega -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 17 2014 15:51:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Guitars will always be here but in price lines that the economy can afford. Spanish guitars were doing fine on the tourist dollar until they joined the European Common Market, which drove prices for high end guitars out of sight.


There are numerous excellent Spanish guitar makers who, even today, sell their guitars for considerably less money than you ask for yours. [8|]



Ricardo -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 17 2014 16:03:30)

quote:

Prices were not driven up when Spain entered the EU. prices came up to where they should have been many decades before.


Hmmm, interesting view I never thought about it like that. I honestly felt at the time, having bought guitars and stuff with pesetas, then later euros, that the sudden change was not a good thing for Spain economy as I found myself discouraging American and other foreign students from going to spain to buy stuff at that time cuz it was no longer "a good deal". Better getting used or on line stuff. But it used to be even a REASON for a tourist to visit spain....buying stuff and bringing it home.

Ricardo



Morante -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 17 2014 16:21:52)

quote:

Its ridiculous the low prices that were paid for guitars just 30 years ago. And still they were to high for Spanish persons.


Anders, you are absolutely right.

Many years ago I decided to buy a good guitar. Ramirez prices seemed to be about 400.000 ptas. So I saved up until I had money and instead of my usual direct trip to Cádiz, went on a tour of Andalucia; Almería(Gerundino), Jaén(Jerónimo Peña). Granada(Bellido), Córdaba (Reyes). Sevilla(Barba), ending in Cádiz.

First stop Almería. I could not believe the poverty of the barrio where Gerundino lived, nor the poverty of his house. At first he refused to sell me a guitar: said he only had 3 and they were for professionals and so were too expensive for me. Eventually, after a few glasses of wine, he showed me the guitarras and I ended up with the one I liked most, for 200,000ptas.

Many years later, reading his biography, I realized that he had been ripped off for many years by a famous guitarist who bought much of his output cheap and sold them abroad, expensive. He lived on the edge of poverty, in spite of his universal fame.

Such is life, the rich are rich and the poor are poor, uneducated and ripe for explotation

[:-]



Ricardo -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 17 2014 16:53:07)

quote:

famous guitarist who bought much of his output cheap


Who? I know a guitarist from almeria who sold those guitars very expensive for years in my area.



keith -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 17 2014 17:13:13)

famous guitarist and a relationship with gerundino? would that be paco pena? juan martin? did gerundino identify this guitarist?

it is interesting to read pohren's art of flamenco and see how inexpensive guitars made by conde, ramirez, et.al were back in the day. even with a c.p.i. adjustment to today's dollars they were inexpensive.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 17 2014 17:41:09)

quote:


Come on TomB. Thats too far out.


No it isn't, as I lived in Spain for a short time in 1965 and the prices were what I could afford, being a professional student who loved the art.

I could live in Madrid and take lessons, with all accommodations; food, lodging, and slight entertainment for about 150 US dollars a month. $50 for lessons, $20 for food, $30 for lodging, and the rest for everyday spending expenses.

A Faustino Conde guitar was about $350 at the time and I couldn't afford it so I finally managed to buy a Ramirez and a Felix Manzanero for $200 each, and when I got back to the US I sold the Ramirez for $650, then ordered another one from Sr. Martinez who was manager of the Ramirez shop, at the time, and paid my mother back for most of the trip.

And anytime you raise the economy of a country with something like the Euro you have everything else follow its path, like the cost of bread, etc. So right now, I could never afford to travel there, as the Madrid expenses are as high as Washington D.C. And D.C.'s prices are most higher than my town.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 17 2014 17:54:49)

quote:

Hmmm, interesting view I never thought about it like that. I honestly felt at the time, having bought guitars and stuff with pesetas, then later euros, that the sudden change was not a good thing for Spain economy as I found myself discouraging American and other foreign students from going to spain to buy stuff at that time cuz it was no longer "a good deal". Better getting used or on line stuff. But it used to be even a REASON for a tourist to visit spain....buying stuff and bringing it home.


The euro was not a bad thing for Spanish economy. What was bad was the speculation that came with it. But that was more or less world wide, so maybe it wasnt the euros fault.
Yes prices got up in Spain. They had to in order to be able to raise the living standard to something reasonable. Travel around rural Spain far from the tourist destinations and you´ll see what I mean.
Just a few decades ago, housing was very poor quality in Spain. My wife was born in 1960. She and her brothers and sisters were send away to catholic nun and munk schools (trust me... NOONE liked that) because the family didnt have money to feed the kids. Untill she was grown up, there wasnt even a toilet in the house. You had to go out in the backyard where the mule was. They had no cars. Just one bicycle thay had to share.
And all this was normal in rural Spain not long ago.

So the price for bringing Spain up to a decent western european living standard was that American tourist cant afford to go here and buy exotic guitars from exotic little handbuilders and bring them home to put on the wall. I´m very sorry for that, but at least its been goo for the American guitarbuilders. They can now build and sell Spanish guitars.



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