RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Full Version)

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Ruphus -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 17 2014 19:12:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

So the price for bringing Spain up to a decent western european living standard was that * tourist cant afford to go here and buy exotic guitars from exotic little handbuilders and bring them home to put on the wall.


Exactly how I came across the most enchanting Spanish guitar in my life.
It was hanging on someone´s wall. A souvenir from Spain. ( She was aware of the quality / maker´s reputation, but not employing it / leaving it on the wall.)
Still banging my head for not having bought it from her. ( She had purchased it for 300 DM equivalent and was prepared to sell to me for 700.)

Still hoping to find something as beautifully sounding like that.

Ruphus



Ricardo -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 18 2014 6:51:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

Hmmm, interesting view I never thought about it like that. I honestly felt at the time, having bought guitars and stuff with pesetas, then later euros, that the sudden change was not a good thing for Spain economy as I found myself discouraging American and other foreign students from going to spain to buy stuff at that time cuz it was no longer "a good deal". Better getting used or on line stuff. But it used to be even a REASON for a tourist to visit spain....buying stuff and bringing it home.


The euro was not a bad thing for Spanish economy. What was bad was the speculation that came with it. But that was more or less world wide, so maybe it wasnt the euros fault.
Yes prices got up in Spain. They had to in order to be able to raise the living standard to something reasonable. Travel around rural Spain far from the tourist destinations and you´ll see what I mean.
Just a few decades ago, housing was very poor quality in Spain. My wife was born in 1960. She and her brothers and sisters were send away to catholic nun and munk schools (trust me... NOONE liked that) because the family didnt have money to feed the kids. Untill she was grown up, there wasnt even a toilet in the house. You had to go out in the backyard where the mule was. They had no cars. Just one bicycle thay had to share.
And all this was normal in rural Spain not long ago.

So the price for bringing Spain up to a decent western european living standard was that American tourist cant afford to go here and buy exotic guitars from exotic little handbuilders and bring them home to put on the wall. I´m very sorry for that, but at least its been goo for the American guitarbuilders. They can now build and sell Spanish guitars.


hmmmm ok whatever.



mark74 -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 18 2014 7:04:37)

I thought the worst thing for Spain was the real estate crash, no?

When the world economy tanked Europeans stopped buying real estate in Spain or going on vacation there and the money dried up



Ruphus -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 18 2014 8:56:23)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark74

I thought the worst thing for Spain was the real estate crash, no?


Depending on whether considering secondary or primary phenomenons.
Primarily in Spain, just like in most places, the economical problem after expropriation of wages is the drain of states budgets.

From what I read in many Spanish communities the cashbox was looted like under despotism.

Basically it is private contractors who will woo municipalities for either pseudo projects or for grossly overpaid ones. With some of the crumbs in return being left to the officials.

That is how in Spain before all overpriced concrete piles have been developed that most locals cannot afford.

There have many feasts been celebrated in the way of how it is currently observable with the new airport ind Berlin / Germany.

Meanwhile even obedient press can´t camouflage anymore that a project like that could had easily been accomplished within time, and even prematurely. And why it is not.
Which is that industry and their accomplice among officials of municipality and state are having a cockaigne and love to prolong accordingly.

With the agreement on billion budgets and the option to triple and quadruple them through protracting everyone rubs their hands to start their drainage bowl.

If not at work already, companies and associations are being grounded for the mere purpose of generating fake invoices and distribution bank accounts. Under large projects meaning the snug setting aside of a couple tenfold million € here and some hundred millions there. Ending up with years of project delay and billions of privatized tax € por nada.

Municipality and states looting, through white collar networks who place their envoys in official positions, is what largely empoverishes citizens, leaving youth without perspective and pensioners in a bad way.
( Only about ten years ago there was sensation in Germany about the discovery that there had come up 50 000 impoverished children. Now those are 5 million kids.)

Hence, there is little meaning in asking how a nation does.
It needs differenciation between societal classes.

In Spain like about everywhere else you now have Spaniards rich like never before.
They gorged on giant budgets of state and EU which again had been extracted from Europe´s little people.

Lately even a hyporictical UNO is predicting conflicts that are going to rise from the increasingly blatant gap between people and their privileged class.

The ethical and economical perversion is not going to end until there be actual states of the people.

Ruphus



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 18 2014 13:24:33)

quote:

The ethical and economical perversion is not going to end until there be actual states of the people.


It's difficult to say the little people will rise up and take any responsibility for their plight in life. There are going to be leaders and followers and what we need is a born again reality of compassion for our fellow man. If not, then there is no real problematic system to be worked out for the benefit of all people.



Ruphus -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 18 2014 16:13:07)

We can have authentically employee-owned enterprises like Isthmus that work just great for everyone involved: http://www.isthmuseng.com/company/worker-owned-cooperative/

And we could just as well have authentical democracies.
Exploitative systems have made us believe that such was not duable, but it definitly is.

Where there is a strong will for democracy and against corruption, there it can be had.
Only that I fear that it will take dazed menkind a complete ruin of the ecology first / left without alternative before it will finally understand that it has been desinformed and sent up.

The moment when people be taking over reign ( which will likely be happening) might well be when it is too late then for a sane living as human being anyway.

Why can we not convey the most basic of reason today?

Ruphus



Ruphus -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 20 2014 11:46:53)

At silencium and declining thread, let me add a little note.

One thing that I like about photography (and skillful drawing / painting) is the capturing of a subjective moment. And so, when I look at photos I often zoom into facial expression and try to sense the emotional momentum.
Which is specially interesting with historical photographies and the mentality changes they communicate.

Anyway. To who cannot see the culprit with exploitation and its suppression of right, health, simple truth and option:
Please have a look at the staff´s photo on the Isthmus website.
Taking your time roaming faces and postures, one by one.

And tell me: Can you not see the unique state of the people?
How dignity, confidence and brightness of these individuals differs with your common photo and stiff smiles from exploitative companies´ staff?

Have you seen thelike charismatic scenes of everyone being happy chief, master of his labour and life, before?

Take your time watching these faces, and if feeling bound to detouched societal concept, don´t admit what you see. Just let that picture quietly talk to your heart.

Thanks!

Ruphus



Ricardo -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 20 2014 17:17:48)

quote:

Please have a look at the staff´s photo on the Isthmus website.


Look like a bunch of depressed engineering nerds. [:D]



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 20 2014 18:01:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

We can have authentically employee-owned enterprises like Isthmus that work just great for everyone involved: http://www.isthmuseng.com/company/worker-owned-cooperative/

Ruphus


I was a member of an employee-owned company for several years, and I still own stock in it. The stock forms about 10% of my net worth, and provides about 15% of my annual income.

The company is in the defense business. You dismissed its financial success out of hand, due to what you claimed to be outrageous margins in the defense business. In fact the company's main product is studies, advice and exploring the feasibility of advanced concepts, which involves little risk. Government procurement regulations strictly limit the profitability of such contracts to a percentage considerably below that of ordinary commercial enterprises.

It was the best job I ever had. I believe there were three main factors at work. Of course one was joint ownership of the company and profit sharing among all 35 employees. But I believe two other factors were at least as important.

The company had intentionally grown very slowly, being exceptionally selective in the choice of new employees. New technical employees were chosen among those who worked on projects that the company was involved in. They knew me and observed my work for at least four years before I was approached. This was the usual pattern. New employees were chosen for their technical ability, and for the likelihood that they would get along well with the rest of the group.

The other main factor puzzled me slightly for the first few months I worked there. Everyone got along. There were no factions or cliques. Everyone treated everyone else with complete respect and genuine thoughtfulness, including the secretaries and the receptionist. This puzzled me because the company was started by a single individual, who was the main owner for a number of years. He didn't strike me as the type to have created such a harmonious atmosphere.

A couple of weeks after I started to work, a person whose name I knew, but whom I had not met, stopped by my office. He introduced himself as the chief financial officer, and said he worked part time. He said he had owned a small business, had retired and sold it to his employees, and now had a management consulting business.

I asked him whether he had any interesting clients. He said that he did. He was working for one of the academic departments at the University of California Los Angeles.

"Which one?"

"The Management Department."

My puzzlement evaporated six months after I started to work there, at the picnic in honor of the original owner's retirement. In his brief speech, he thanked the financial officer/management consultant.

"When I started out, I knew I would need some financial advice, so I hired Xxxx. He gave me very valuable financial advice. He also taught me that a small company could be run like a happy family. As some of you know, I had previously not been particularly successful at the happy family part."

So when I worked there, and in succeeding years, there were three major factors in the company's success: careful selection of employees, not only for ability, but for compatibility; employee ownership; and a carefully nurtured culture of mutual respect and cooperation.

I think all three factors were essential for success.

RNJ



Leñador -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 20 2014 18:54:42)

Yeah, that kinda of thing doesn't always work. In construction for instance I've had many employees that don't want to move up, don't want any form of responsibilities, and don't want to make any decisions. They want to show up, be told what to do, do it, and leave. They're not bad employees either they just don't want the responsibility that comes with having a part of the company. I think this is obviously more common in blue collar industry.....



Ruphus -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 20 2014 19:06:02)

Richard,

Makes sense.

But there is no better precondition than the inside that you don´t need any elevate owner who drags away a lion share of what you produce.
Simultaneously, the truly relevant sociological aspect that you are pointing to is definitly helped by the fact that one rises in the morning for to bring forward his own enterprise, completed by colleagues who instead of being competetive or resentful appreciate your well-being and productivity as their own benefit.

The faces of such owning crew are handsome prove for how reasonable and humane ways yield. I wished to have ever worked in an evironment nearly as cheerful and satisfied like them. ( They not at last have some fantastic salaries, with noone in place to vaporize their labour value.)
Long shall they live and enjoy the fair fruits of their engagement.

Ruphus

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Ruphus -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 20 2014 19:18:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

Yeah, that kinda of thing doesn't always work. In construction for instance I've had many employees that don't want to move up, don't want any form of responsibilities, and don't want to make any decisions. They want to show up, be told what to do, do it, and leave. They're not bad employees either they just don't want the responsibility that comes with having a part of the company. I think this is obviously more common in blue collar industry.....


True.
A cousin of mine experienced that mentality until he gave up on the idea of benefitting his emplyees.

Such attitude of ducking away is a very understandable by-product of living under exploitative standards.
From there it can´t be count with that every participant could spontaneously appreciate the conditions of a contrasting fair company.
But such incompatibility should not last for more than a while, or at worst for one generation.

Rather should a sane mind understand the difference to the new situation rather quickly. Moreven if colleagues can help him comprehend.
... And if all fails, intelligent picking of potential staff like Richard described above should help with improving chances. After all it would be a pity if owning staff could not appreciate the substantial privileg with human right.

Ruphus



Ruphus -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 22 2014 11:42:59)

If not yet able to see the effects of exploitation with the people / vice versa the difference of faces that are allowed to live in dignity, the future might yet convey insight through diverse other symptoms.

Those symptoms in fact are becoming so blatant that even the organs of the exploiting powers won´t try anymore to cover them.

Days ago the UNO pointed out the societal discrepancy between privileged and exploited, and how that will lead to turmoils in the near future.

Today under the translated headline "Democracy World Wide on Retreat" there is report of the Bertelsmann foundation which states that:
"The enormous difference between poor and rich, social exclusion and further political failures, may be leading to protests in many parts of the world."
"In most states only small elites do profit, while simultaneously many citizens´ resistance against the mismanagment grows".
"Because of that the global movement of citizens and revolts will increase".

According to the foundation there are backwards developments in 59 of 75 "analyzed democracies" in respect of apparent standards like fair elections, freedom of press, reliability of justice or separation of powers.

If you can´t read faces of deprived / see the vital difference with people allowed to live under fair conditions. -
If it takes more obvious symptoms for most banal matters of course, coming years will deliver the understanding.
There will be times when basics of reason won´t be unclear anymore.

Every elementary school pupil will be knowing that it can´t be anywhere near democracy where for instance half of food production is thrown away whilst fellows are eating dog poo.
Even kids then knowing most elementary of humane and cognitive standard, and of being civilized.

Ruphus



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 23 2014 15:17:24)

I dropped out of this thread because it had a negative impact on my emotional health.
Its very easy to sit in an armchair and judge and discuss other peoples missery especially if one is living in a super rich country and only has intellectual relationship with what they are discussing.

But here you have some statistics which are very new (you may use them the way you want I´m not going to discuss.:
From today and yesterday:
*Unemployment in Spain is 26% and in Andalucia 36%. remember that its a place where relatively many woman still are housewives and so they dont show up in this statistic. (Youth unemployment (16 - 25 years old is around 50% (Spain) and 60 - 65% (Andalucia))
* 2013 was the year with most tourism and most income from tourism EVER in Andalucia.
* In Europe, Spain is the country with the second biggest difference between rich and poor. Only Lethonia has a bigger difference between those who have and those who dont. And the difference is growing. The richest are way richer now than before the socalled economical crisis.

From the last half a year or so:
*The corruption is enourmous. There are 2 big political parties in Spain (conservative and socialdemocrats) Both of them are having major economical scandals running and it seems its not going to stop.
*The biggest trade union UGT, is being investigated for a very big economical scandal having used public money for their own purposes.
* And last but best: One of the princesses of the Royal Spanish crown is under investigation of participating in whitewash of money.

Ole.



tijeretamiel -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 23 2014 17:02:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

But here you have some statistics which are very new (you may use them the way you want I´m not going to discuss.:
From today and yesterday:
*Unemployment in Spain is 26% and in Andalucia 36%. remember that its a place where relatively many woman still are housewives and so they dont show up in this statistic. (Youth unemployment (16 - 25 years old is around 50% (Spain) and 60 - 65% (Andalucia))

* In Europe, Spain is the country with the second biggest difference between rich and poor. Only Lethonia has a bigger difference between those who have and those who dont. And the difference is growing. The richest are way richer now than before the socalled economical crisis.



The Youth Unemployment issue is something I believe is Western Europe's ticking timebomb of sorts, which unfortunately isn't just in Spain but applies to Greece, Italy, Portugal to name a few.

My friend who's Greek has some pretty grim stories. Her mother is a teacher and she talks of children coming into school who are passing out due to malnutrition.

Changes in the European zone's economics have impacted most of it's participants aside from a few who have taken advantage of it, and I'm in agreement with Anders there are a small percentage who have got richer as most have got poorer.

Personally, I believe if the economic conditions improve in Spain and Europe, and there is greater economic parity it should be a good thing for the consumer of Flamenco guitars be in Spain or elsewhere. Healthier economic conditions would lead to greater demand, which may lead to the well known luthiers prices rising more so than now, but there potentially should be more young luthiers to start up (a similar situation to the one for steel string luthiers in the USA, there are some great young luthiers who are stepping into the market, but as flamenco has a smaller market it can be presumed it will be of a more limited basis).



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 23 2014 18:36:33)

It seems that economic conditions have not improved in Spain in the last two years. Yesterday Bloomberg reported that one-third of the unemployed in the Euro zone live in Spain. All things considered this is a shocking statistic.



mark74 -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 24 2014 4:07:59)

If one is living in a wealthy country that does not mean one is wealthy, nor that they only have an intellectual understanding of financial stress



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 24 2014 12:56:38)

Everyone is empathetic when others suffer and it seems that all countries are affected by this current downward spiral concerning economic situations, to some degree. But I have found that many of us can do the impossible when challenged by these trends, and stay afloat in a life-raft of sorts until things change for the better.

To me, it's got to be the grace of God, with all of my health problems for the past 6 years, but there is hope still burning in my soul for a better day, and I know that my redeemer lives, in-spite of everything that comes crashing down around me.

I've started building a flamenco guitar and it's a little slow but I'm having fun with it; using the mechanical tuning pegs for the first time ever. Also, just sold some of my wood stock; trying to trim down a little.



Ruphus -> RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers (Jan. 24 2014 13:52:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

... it seems that all countries are affected by this current downward spiral concerning economic situations, to some degree. But I have found that many of us can do the impossible when challenged by these trends, and stay afloat in a life-raft of sorts until things change for the better.


This downward spiral is not an act of god / natural catastrophy, and it would be helpful if commons sense possibly came to understand that.

It is no generally effecting phenomenon and balance of the exact contrary, which actually in headlines from today reads like "People in Germany own ever greater cash assets"
http://www.zeit.de/news/2014-01/24/finanzen-menschen-indeutschland-haben-immer-hoehere-geldvermoegen-24113011

Actually it is not "the people of Germany" to whom such applies, but a small minority whichs accumulation is so extreme that it suffices to raise the average statistics.

Worlwide there has never been such a rich being like now, and that rich being is so excessively accelerated that it radically disposses the rest of the world.


Let´s be sober enough to not treat the economic phenomenon as if it was some obscure natural catastrophy, but name just and finally as what it is.
Which is out of hand exploitation of people and environment under plutocracy and mafia.

Thank you,

Ruphus



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