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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Luthiers
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estebanana
Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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 RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to jshelton5040)
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John one thing I have to respectfully disagree on is that the banking industry is not blameless in financial crisis. Making money is fine, but predatory lending was not ethical. I worked as a carpenter in the housing sector for a while and the market was ruined by predatory lending.
I would over hear the real estate guys on job sites talking about the when the bubble would burst knowing that when it did I would be out. My own parents lost their house that they worked for, and I can't blame any political figure, the bank foreclosed on them and would not work with them.
When the middle class did not understand that the middle class could be under attack in the future, they had no reason to think they would not be able to support buying a home. The small minority of greedy mortgage packagers knew exactly what was going down. They made obscene amounts of money and risked the security of the middle class, then when banks no longer had confidence in the economy they refused to loan money for new construction and cut lines of credit even to those who had accumulated wealth. The banks are still holding the purse strings to funding projects and hold the economy back. All while charging more for basic banking services and dinging the customer for any and every special charge they can get.
The irony is that when the crisis hit predatory lending did not stop. I was at a flamenco party a more than few years ago and I almost got violent with some one. I never get violent, I'm a big calm dude, but I can kick ass. The guy next to me at the party was a real estate guy who packaged mortgages. He knew nothing about flamenco and ended up at the fiesta through a friend. He turned to me and said "Well looks like a bunch of flamenco pussy just walked through the door." He made some other lewd insinuations about flamenco dancers he should not have made. I said well those girls are my friends and some of them are professional artists, you should be careful. So the conversation turned to what we did for a living and he was quite cavalier in telling me he worked in sub prime mortgages. I told him my parents had just lost their house due this the sub prime phenomena and that I was still pretty raw over it. ( My parents did not tell me until after their house was gone, they kept it quiet so I would not worry! Then called my from their new apt....wait what? )
The Subprime douchebag dude then said to me then, "I'm out of a job right now too, but I have another lined up. Oh, I said ? "Yeah" he says " The sub prime thing is still the easy way to make lots of money in mortgages and I'll go work for another firm."
The combination of pissing me off for a being a douche about flamenco dancer friends and being a sick mortgage douche almost got him knocked down. These days people are so litigious and self righteous that we have forgotten when someone needs a good ass kicking that they deserve, they should get that asskicking without the asskicker fearing legal repercussions. That was the only thing between him and being layed out flat.
That story and the research I did into the predatory lending system and how it took advantage of the good faith of the middle class has led me to believe that the banks are part of the blame for the current economic situation.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jun. 1 2012 1:29:31
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Pedoviejo
Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to jshelton5040)
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What a thread! Several things come to mind....
Historically: Think of the Spanish luthiers who had to survive the Spanish Civil War (1936 - 1939) and the long, long, long recovery from it. They did survive, of course (if you leave out Domingo Esteso dying in 1939 and Santos in 1941), and without any benefits of any kind to speak of. Think of all those "Viuda de..." labels because the widows had no income, no pensions. Many died in poverty, like Antonio de Torres. Which brings me to....
More recent past: I first went to Spain near the end of the Franco period. Relatively speaking, people were still poor, but no one seemed to be starving. One of the smart things the wily old dictator did was keep tobacco and alcohol so cheap that the poorest could afford a drink and a smoke. People didn’t have much, but there was family and camaraderie every day and evening in the bars and restaurants, much more than I’ve experienced over the years since in the affluent U.S.A. Luthiers’ shops were perpetual “hangouts,” with artists, friends and friends of friends stopping by to shoot the breeze while the artisans worked, as Arcángel Fernández once told me, “slowly and with care.” It was a very pleasant way of life.
Today: 40 years later, things seem to be definitely out of whack. Good governance is the art of balancing on top of a bubble and it’s very easy to slide off, whether it’s to the right side or the left. And it seems to me that it is a tradition of homo sapiens to look for nice, neat answers when there are none of the sort. Here in the good ‘ole U.S. of A., the Republicans keep preaching that government is the root of all problems, and if we would just get it off our backs all of those “creative energies” would be released and all would rise on that benign tide. The Democrats…. Well, they don’t quite seem to know what they’re about these days. (Personally, I’ve had a problem with the two party system ever since Bill Clinton turned the Democrats into Republicans and the Republicans became fascists.) A good slice of the European technocracy seems to have bought into that chant with “austerity” being the solution to present economic woes… and have run smack into that terrible thing called democracy (witness recent elections in Greece and France). But note that there is something of a failure of communication across the Atlantic: While Germany preaches austerity, it itself still has a very robust “social safety net” which includes a national health plan (i.e, “socialized medicine”) and strong labor laws – and its economy still works just fine, as it has for decades. Ditto for Japan, which we derided for its “moribund growth” which doesn’t look none too bad these days. But those parts have been blacked out in most of the “news” coverage in the U.S. as extremely inconvenient facts that defy the “starve the [government] beast” theory of economics. Again, it’s about balance: The evidence, such as it is, I think shows that a good social safety net and a thriving economy are not mutually exclusive. As far as I see, however, the great majority of the American populace are not only incredibly insular but also have no idea what a real “left” in politics is. If you believe the neo-conservative and Tea Party screams, Obama is the most left, socialist president this country has ever had. What a great, steaming pile. (The art critic Robert Hughes (Australian come American) had it right when he wrote that “U.S.A.” stands for “United States of Amnesia.”)
In short, if you have policies that encourage people to take very early retirement and not work; or, policies that hand the laws to the wealthiest few on the “trickle down” theory (i.e., scraps will inevitably fall off the table if it’s piled high enough), you will get equally bad – and unjust – results. Achieving that balance, however, becomes extremely difficult if greed rules the laws, and the greatest vessel of greed in modern times is the publicly traded corporation – which is another whole topic. And beware of “purity” in either economics or politics: “If we have any kind of social welfare state, some people will take advantage!” True – but consider the alternative. Do we want to go back to the days of “Viuda de…..”? No matter what you do there will be abuse. Abuse must be accepted as inevitable, but never tolerated. That requires good laws and good people to enforce them, and just what “good” is, is a topic that should be as continuously debated now just as it was in the Agora of Hellenic Athens.
What’s this got to do with luthiers? Nothing and everything. Luthiers can take the corporate-mass production model and prosper economically (and I did NOT use the word “Conde” – a friend of mine said he would love to mount a time-motion camera outside the window of the Felipe V shop to see if anyone ever is at that traditional workbench), which would include careful and focused marketing (a/k/a b.s.). Or continue in the time honored skilled artisan tradition which can, at its best, provide a comfortable, if not wealthy, living and much personal satisfaction in one’s chosen work. The latter becomes more and more difficult, however, if overall prices (real estate, rents, tools, supplies) keep escalating faster than the price one is able to obtain for a guitar. It takes good governance to do that, not the elimination or hampering thereof. Only a government, for example, can make and enforce good and strong environmental laws that, say, protect natural resources. How many old growth trees are left? Brazilian rosewood has been unavailable for quite awhile now; fine, aged spruce is becoming ever more scarce. The loss of fine woods is, in my mind, one of the greatest threats to fine lutherie.
So – if fine lutherie could survive the Great Depression, the Spanish Civil War, Franco Spain, etc., it can survive today. As always, however, it will have to morph. Which new luthiers can afford a shop today in downtown Madrid – or New York, or San Francisco, or Tokyo? But you don’t have to be in any of those places – or any city in particular – to build fine guitars. It may require the persistence of Kono, or the humility and calm of Barbero, but it can, and I believe will, be done.
_____________________________
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Date Jun. 1 2012 4:16:52
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Pedoviejo
Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
That story and the research I did into the predatory lending system and how it took advantage of the good faith of the middle class has led me to believe that the banks are part of the blame for the current economic situation.
Absolutely - and so is the government, not for being the government or for "interfering" in the economy, but for its failure to do its most essential job: enact and enforce fair and just laws based on the public good (and "regulations," contrary to what its opponents would like people to believe, are a species of law). For how many millenia has greed been identified as wrong, sinful, evil - by just about every religion? When your laws - of lack thereof - are based on a "greed is good" model, there will be no shortage of bad actors to take advantage. And a good part of the problem was/is that banks were/are allowed to do just about anything except banking. Banking was about lending money for which the bank would remain at risk. We got into serious problems when banking was reduced to mere brokering with little to no consequence for the bankers. And the congressman from Vermont was right when he recently said that if a business enterprise is "too big to fail", then it needs to be broken up under the anti trust laws - just as that good Republican, Theodore Roosevelt, said and did.
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Date Jun. 1 2012 4:40:32
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stpercival
Posts: 11
Joined: Oct. 21 2010
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Pedoviejo)
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Everyone is right on the money...the sad thing is that politicians (and many of us) stick to strict political party philosophy.
John Shelton is correct, " I loath government swine." And why shouldn't we ? They will do what their financial backer tell them, not what is best for the people they represent. This goes for both repucklicans and democants.
Steven Faulk is correct " predatory lending was not ethical." I taught a student (I'm a history teacher in California) whose father was a real estate agent and broker, because I had a connection with his child he told me " do not buy a house right now, because this will crumble like a house of cards."
Also steven stated, "then when banks no longer had confidence in the economy they refused to loan money for new construction and cut lines of credit even to those who had accumulated wealth." This was the reason Japan was in a recession that lasted over 12 years...something they never fully recovered from !!!
Nealf is correct, "On top of that it was a total social state with people retiring from jobs at 50 with full pensions." Tell me about it. I have a friend in law enforcement that will retire at 52 with about 95 percent of his pension. As a teacher, I am going to have to work until I'm 77-78 get get 93 percent of my pension.
What have I learned from all of this ... that we need to listen to each other (something that a certain party that rhymes with rebucklican has a hard time with). The second thing that I've learned is................................that i got a summer job to commission a guitar from either andy, steven, john, or anders.
And pedoviejo "Republicans keep preaching that government is the root of all problems, and if we would just get it off our backs all of those “creative energies” would be released and all would rise on that benign tide. The Democrats…. Well, they don’t quite seem to know what they’re about these days. (Personally, I’ve had a problem with the two party system ever since Bill Clinton turned the Democrats into Republicans and the Republicans became fascists.)" All I can say is Amen.
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Date Jun. 1 2012 5:56:45
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shaun
Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to Pedoviejo)
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quote:
Luthiers can take the corporate-mass production model and prosper economically (and I did NOT use the word “Conde” – a friend of mine said he would love to mount a time-motion camera outside the window of the Felipe V shop to see if anyone ever is at that traditional workbench), which would include careful and focused marketing (a/k/a b.s.). Or continue in the time honored skilled artisan tradition which can, at its best, provide a comfortable, if not wealthy, living and much personal satisfaction in one’s chosen work. The latter becomes more and more difficult, however, if overall prices (real estate, rents, tools, supplies) keep escalating faster than the price one is able to obtain for a guitar.
I applaud those that stay true to the art. The worry is that the mass production model will trump tradition. The nature of wood is such that it demands careful attention to be crafted properly. That attention to detail doesn't happen on an assembly line. In North America, craftsmanship is abandoned for a more profitable model fairly easily. An economic crisis such as is happening in Europe now could be the catalyst for more luthiers moving in that direction.
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Date Jun. 1 2012 13:46:05
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to jshelton5040)
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John,
if I misinterpreted you, then I´m sorry, but ideas of banks not being part of this whole missery I dont get at all. I agree that its the politicians who are totally sold... But they are sold to the money machine and there the banks have a very important role. The banks were amongst the most interested in blowing up the economical bubble. This way they could earn more and the politicians let them do so.
SEden
Making a lot of cheaper guitar will only kill yourself slowly. You´ll loose respect for your own work and while I think you can fisically build 40 guitar a year, you wont last and the quality of what you do will most probably suffer. It´ll only mean that we´ll have less builders making lower quality instruments. So then the clients could equally buy a small factory guitar. And you´ll se yourself degraded to be a second range maker. If thats what you want, go ahead
I´m not going to compromise with my work. I can do a max of 12 guitars a year. If I do more, I dont do them well. It just ends up being payed work and then things like inspiration and "being there" disappears. If I have to, I´ll make less instruments and look for an income somewhere else.
Right now in Spain, we have a lot of bloodsuckers looking for a cheap deal because of someones missery. They want to pay 1000,-EUROS for a guitar like the ones I make. I just tell them to stop wasting my time and find someone else to bully. If you want to be the one they bully, go ahead, but be warned
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Jun. 1 2012 15:55:24
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Pedoviejo
Posts: 59
Joined: Dec. 12 2003
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RE: Economical Crisis in Spanish Lut... (in reply to jshelton5040)
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quote:
The only group I know of that is unaffected by the financial crisis are the government drones whose wages and benefits continue to climb while everyone else is living on less.
For what it’s worth, a little bit of my 60 year old perspective: Until the last few decades government jobs paid significantly less than private sector equivalents. Hence, in order to attract decent employees government positions offered decent benefits: Health care, early retirement with pension pay close to full working pay (which, again, wasn’t that high), etc. (Politically, legislators couldn’t support higher wages, but “bennies” were easier to hide away in budgets that were fuzzy on the public radar - and besides, most private sector jobs had the same benefits back then.) However, starting in the late ‘70’s, as the U.S. economy was increasingly deregulated (to “release” those alleged “pent up energies”), benefits in the private sector starting sliding away. Flash forward to today, and those government jobs look way better than they did years ago in comparison to the private sector because, well, being government jobs and thereby defined by legislation rather than “market forces”, the pay and benefits could not be swiped away with the stroke of a corporate pen.
My point is: don’t blame the “drones.” They didn’t create the jobs or the rules that go with them. If those jobs look so good now, instead of castigating the employees, I think we should be asking why the average private sector job pay and benefits have become so much worse in comparison. Perhaps, e.g., because corporations can go through a "restructuring" (Chapter 11 bankruptcy) that allows them to dump all of their pension obligations on a quasi-government entity (which pays a fraction of the originally promised pension) and emerge from the bankruptcy court with no obligation to any of its former employees? While the same corporation is paying full pay to its top executives and can even pay out a handsome bonus to those same executives for their brilliance in “saving” the company vis a vis the shrewd bankruptcy maneuver? And while this goes on (and I’ve only barely touched the surface) a few years ago under Bush II we had “bankruptcy reform” – for individuals. No, no, we couldn’t let those lazy, spendthrift scofflaws who ran up credit card debts just simply wash them out (Chapter 7 bankruptcy) – even though they could not file for bankruptcy again for another 6 years. No, they have to work more and pay back more to the suffering banks and other credit card issuers so their losses would not sink our economy…. The same ones which still get to file for Chapter 11 “restructuring.” Whose executives walk away richer than ever.
And there’s your group which has truly prospered mightily while everyone else has taken less - luthiers being included in “everyone else.” If we want that to change, then we need to change the rules of the game.
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Date Jun. 1 2012 23:00:55
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