Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods and David Serva who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





RE: Focal Dystonia.   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 2 3 [4] 5    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
a_arnold

 

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

Okay, how's this for a hypothesis?

I sometimes practice past the point of exhaustion of my extensor/flexor muscles. A new falseta can capture me that way. I go all OCD.

At some point, I am so exhausted I become clumsy and inaccurate. I imagine there are many devoted musicians who take their practice to that stage, thinking they are just being dedicated to their art.

But what if continuing to practice while clumsy and inaccurate "trains" the brain to be clumsy and inaccurate? What if the dystonic expanded, overlapping finger-to-brain maps are "all over the place" because we hammer our brains with sloppy, exhausted practice?

I don't have FD, so I have to ask people who do: does this seem reasonable?

_____________________________

"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2013 19:34:03
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3400
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

If I were to set about writing everything I know it would take a long time.
ditto

quote:

I prefer Walter Carrington he is a better writer.
than FM Alexander? Really? Well, it's your prerogative to prefer what you like of course, but really, if you want the Alexander Technique, then I think Alexander is your man.

quote:

And Mark I had had enough of you when you first spoke.
Ouch

quote:

It has been kind of you to confirm that impression which I too hastily recanted.
that I was trying to "yank your chain"? trying to wind you up? Not so. I'm not here to intentionally or deliberately irritate or annoy anyone, but if a difference of opinion has that effect, how can I help it?

You can't really expect to post your opinions as definitive statements and then say that's the end of the discussion without any sort of come back or reply....

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2013 23:09:24
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to a_arnold

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold
But what if continuing to practice while clumsy and inaccurate "trains" the brain to be clumsy and inaccurate? What if the dystonic expanded, overlapping finger-to-brain maps are "all over the place" because we hammer our brains with sloppy, exhausted practice?



I read that there is a point where your performance begins to deteriorate, and that shows that the neurons are fatigued and need time to rebuild/refresh. At that point, I stop and don't hit it again until I sleep (even a short nap). It takes discipline to stop. (I don't always succeed)

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ


Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2013 23:50:41
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3400
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to a_arnold

quote:

I sometimes practice past the point of exhaustion of my extensor/flexor muscles. A new falseta can capture me that way. I go all OCD.

At some point, I am so exhausted I become clumsy and inaccurate. I imagine there are many devoted musicians who take their practice to that stage, thinking they are just being dedicated to their art.

But what if continuing to practice while clumsy and inaccurate "trains" the brain to be clumsy and inaccurate? What if the dystonic expanded, overlapping finger-to-brain maps are "all over the place" because we hammer our brains with sloppy, exhausted practice?

I don't have FD, so I have to ask people who do: does this seem reasonable?


i don't actually have FD either, but have taken an interest in this thread as I have had a fairly long list of problems with fingers/hands and related problems with neck, shoulders and back.

The practice you describe of pushing your hands past the point of exhaustion is familiar to me as something I believe to have contributed greatly to the problems I have had. Learning to be more sensitive to my own body, and knowing when to stop have been (and continue to be) really important in overcoming these problems.

Would be interesting to hear what anyone with experience of FD has to say about this. Several musicians I have read about who developed FD did so after intense periods of technique practice.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2013 8:56:46
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha



_____________________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/GuitarristaAD
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2013 14:42:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13512
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Elie

After all, I still think the onset is from performance anxiety. That feeling of being nervous so your hand feels suddenly like a cold dead clam that can't do anything to a guitar string. some how that sticks for some and others avoid it by tricking themselves into thinking they ARE paco de lucia on stage.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2013 15:24:13
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3245
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ricardo

A few years ago I read an article where monkeys were given focal dystonia. At the beginning of the experiment the monkeys' brains were probed with electrodes to determine the outlines of the sensory representation of their hands on the cortex.

Then the monkeys received rewards by pulling a lever. The rewards were unlimited, and some monkeys obsessively pulled the lever until they showed symptoms of focal dystonia.

Then the experimenters re-mapped the brains. It was found that the sensory areas of the monkeys' hands had expanded significantly, and overlapped areas that previously had a different function.

There was no mention of performance anxiety, though I doubt that the monkeys were asked to fill out a questionnaire.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2013 18:49:34
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3400
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

After all, I still think the onset is from performance anxiety. That feeling of being nervous so your hand feels suddenly like a cold dead clam that can't do anything to a guitar string.


The stuff about FD I've read is about the way the wires seem to get crossed in the brain. This seems to come about from overpractising.

This is from David Leisner about how his condition begain, "In 1984 I began experiencing a loss of speed in my playing over the course of a month or two, towards the end of the concert season. When it was over, I began to investigate what was happening while practicing. As I continued practicing more carefully than ever, my hand responded less and less to what I asked of it."

Could be that performance anxiety was driving the start of the problem, but seems clear from this that it got worse away from performance, in practising.

From Dominic Frasca, "Seeking to perfect his art, Frasca had an extensive practice routine, often spending up to 14 hours a day playing. While it initially added to his abilities, the rigorousness took its toll; Frasca developed focal dystonia--the loss of motor control in his fingers. He spent two years seeking treatment for the condition, unable to play at all."

Again, seems to be practising not performing that leads to this condition, but could be that it is anxiety about performing driving the player to overpractise to the point that the neurological pathways get muddled up.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2013 21:59:25
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to a_arnold

People like simple explanations; X causes Y, but life is not always like that.

FD is almost certainly symptomatic - no single cause. The published research already shows several common themes coming up time and time again as a precursor to onset. There's a key paper by British researchers that outlines these plus gives an overview of all the current (at the time) main treatments.

There are plenty of ailments that work like this. Lets take IBS (Irritable bowel syndrome). The gut goes into spasms and falls out of its smooth, regular peristalsis. What cause IBS? well could be diet/food sensitivity, could be a virus
or other gut infection, could be stress, could be several of those, etc.

Richard J gives an account of Nancy Byl's landmark experiment with owl monkeys, showing that FD symptoms could be induced through repetitive clasping motions. No performance anxiety maybe, but stress? Hard to say.

In my own case FD had nothing to do with performance anxiety, it was about burning out a mechanism that was already working well, pushing it too far. I used
to obsess over the classical piece Asturias and spent hours playing the fast PIM sixteenth note triplets in the opening section. At speed I & M must prepare together n the top strings, extend together, plant together. I used to play it endlessly and also started playing tremolo PIMI. Eventually things started to become sluggish, started missing strings, so of course I practiced harder. Kapow, FD. I and M became 'fused', I lost control of M flexion and could't pluck M without I curling tightly into the hand.

However, ignoring mental factors when talking about sensory motor issues is daft. Perception is integral to how we learn and refine movement, part of that is unconscious but a big chunk is conscious. Our preconception of a task will affect how our bodies work to carry out that task. It's how people, can walk on hot coals, its how athletes are trained (mentally preparing for a task properly gives more chance of success) and so on. Plenty of research to support this.

I gave an account on the musicians dystonia board of how my FD started apparently 'spreading' to other tasks, and how I reversed that through essentially a mental approach.

Perfomance anxiety may not be a big factor in one person's onset, but that does not stop it being an issue in that person's recovery - nothing more stressful than knowing your fingers are about to curl uncontrollably when you try and play something.

Complicated business this FD You just cannot separate mind and body.

Joaquin Farias' e-book, which I've cited before, gives lots of accounts of different cases of FD with different 'causes'. He groups these and outlines his approaches to therapy, considering the case history and conditions that caused onset. He is, as far as I know, the only well known person in FD circles taking this approach.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2013 7:28:11
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Blondie#2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blondie#2

People like simple explanations; X causes Y, but life is not always like that.




Too true.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 29 2013 7:47:11
 
El Comanche

 

Posts: 10
Joined: Mar. 20 2011
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

guitarbuddha said
quote:

He does not have focal dystonia at all. Shame on his therapist.

D.


You've got some balls. What education or training qualifies you to diagnose FD? Are you a neurologist? Do you have a Phd in biomechanics? Your username is ironic as you show little empathy or compassion for someone who's career was put on hold and is fighting to get back on the stage again.

I was trying to share here for the good of all. I was diagnosed by the top Neurologist at Swedish here in Seattle, not by my therapist. I went all the way to Sevilla for treatment because it is not offered here. The credentials and experience of Dr. Joaquin Farias relating to FD are unequaled.

I've been playing for 30 years, have never had stage fright, and have always enjoyed what I do. The techniques I now struggle with were never an issue before. I work regularly with top artists from Spain. I have a live CD with Rafael de Utrera, if that gives you an indication of my dedication to the art. I barely got through my last tour with him(our third project together) last November. By the time I came home I could barely hold a guitar without unbearable pain and tension. What started out as a clumsiness in my right ring finger developed into a nightmare. I could no longer play simple lines my beginning students could play. I could barely breathe while trying to play. It took took over 2 years to figure out what was wrong.

To diagnose my issues merely by my hand position/finger curvature shows how little you know about focal dystonia. FD is a complex neurological condition that not only creates bad pathways from the brain to hand, but creates layers of psychological and emotional issues that not only worsen the condition, but create more layers of dysfunction.

Perhaps I made a mistake posting here as so few responding either have been diagnosed or understand the condition. While it is rare in the states it is much more common in Spain where 8+ hours practice a day is the norm for the working guitarists I know, and the standard I set for myself for many years.

I posted here to give hope to those struggling with FD. Of course I can see the issues with my hands. I was clear in the video I was only 3 months into my rehab, and that I was just happy to play again, and working my way though it.

guitarbuddha, I found your post arrogant, insensitive and uninformed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2013 11:03:02
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to El Comanche

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Comanche



guitarbuddha, I found your post arrogant, insensitive and uninformed.


I'll cop to two of those.
And since I don't care to negotiate about the third it just remains for me to wish you well.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2013 11:54:08
 
Turron

Posts: 50
Joined: Apr. 18 2013
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to a_arnold

I had FD or something like it and it stopped me playing altogether. It affected my picado only, to the extent that I hardly had a picado.
During the first few years of playing flamenco I could play nice fast, solid picado. Then with a heavy practice regime it just got worse, no matter how much I practiced, and I tried lots of things to remedy it, including playing very slowly, very lightly, starting with i, starting with m, drinking herbal tea, meditating (not joking) ...
In the end I was forced to admit I had 'fried' some neural pathway and I wasn't going to get it back.
I think it must be psychological as well because now, years after giving up the guitar, I still have dreams in which I can play effortless picado across all strings.
For treatment, beware of quacks. I got taken in by a man in Cadiz who claimed to specialise in this problem. He charged me a lot and achieved nothing, and skipped town soon afterwards. He also 'treated' Jose Luis Balao on my recommendation (just when I'd started with the guy). Balao got no benefit either and was a bit cross with me, understandably. I felt awful having led him to waste his money.
I know an eminent neurologist in the USA who just shook his head when I showed him my problem. I took his as the final word.
I don't know how professional flamenco players avoid injury. Starting very young? Being relaxed?
Seek the best professional medically qualified help, take their advice, and good luck.

_____________________________

New flamenco guitar novel! Buy it now on Amazon! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Obsession-Guitarist-In-Spain-ebook/dp/B00EB7U2CO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375623508&sr=8-1&keywords=obsession%3A+a+guitarist+in+spain
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2013 16:21:31
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Turron

quote:

ORIGINAL: Turron
I don't know how professional flamenco players avoid injury.


They don't.

We get to hear about some of them (eg. Nunez) and those of us interested in the subject encounter many more.

Back in 2003 a paper in a performing arts medecine journal published research into pro guitarists (classical and flamenco) in Andalucia who played for 3 hours or more per day.

Of the 64 who too part, 62% of the classical guitarists were affected by overuse syndrome vs 87% of the flamenco guitarists. The paper goes on to explain why, in terms of the physical demands if the techniques.

Statistically, pianist and guitarists are more prone to injury than any other musicians (several studies on that one) and flamenco guitar is just about the riskiest guitar pursuit out there.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2013 17:53:05
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

for some and others avoid it by tricking themselves into thinking they ARE paco de lucia on stage.


Indeed.

I used to do the same thing when I studied karate. I would get seriously beaten up, when sparring, until I started pretending i was Sugar Ray Leonard. It was a last resort. I had come to the point where I was ****ting myself before sparring. So I gave it a go and my experience was transformed.

But I expect I had to get to a certain stage where my body would even allow such parroting behaviour.

My abilities changed instantly. I was suddenly fast and focussed. But again, I used to run every day and train seriously. I still could never touch the best guys in the class (world and Euoropean champions) but I became good enough to be a moving crash test dummy. Even to get to spar with those guys you had to attain a certain level. (It was not full contact to the head, incidentally.)

My sympathies to anyone suffering from this ailment. And apologies for not reading the whole thread but I don't want to catch it.

I do have a question though: People keep asking for experience of this ailment but what is the opposite of it?

It sounds a lot like 'mental health', in the sense that we seem to think we know some bad stuff that happens in our bonces but we are unable to define good mental health. Is the opposite of focal dystonia just not having it or is there more? Isn't that really what we define as exceptional playing, or virtuoso playing, or whatever label we ascribe to it?

I saw a show on telly where they had a classical guitarist who said he had this ailment. He was a professional guitarist with a recording. But in the experiment he was playing one of those little classical studies; I couldn't tell if he was trying to show he was cured or whether this was him with focal dystonia.

I'm not dissing Alexander technique, or variations thereof, by the way. The guitar is a strange shape. And we're all built differently.

Interesting for and to me is that I find my right hand posture is almost always completely off the guitar. I try to grab onto the strings when I can. But this is only after a lot of 'technique' practise. I thought, at first, that it was like 'loading up' but it is becoming the way I interact with the instrument. I only rest on the guitar when I need a rest.

It seems to accellerate my control but I would never have found such a trick without really endless hours of painful practise.

I know we're not supposed to say that. I know there are injuries out there but I can't see how I could have learned without pain.

Focal dystonia? Brrrrr. It's like someone talking about when someone else kicked them in the balls. I can't listen to it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2013 18:11:18
 
El Comanche

 

Posts: 10
Joined: Mar. 20 2011
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:


ORIGINAL: El Comanche

guitarbuddha, I found your post arrogant, insensitive and uninformed.

REPLY: guitarbuddha:

I'll cop to two of those.
And since I don't care to negotiate about the third it just remains for me to wish you well.

D.


Thanks guitarbuddha, for coping to the first two(not an apology), and for at least wishing me well. I have no desire with to argue with you either, but thought since you won't cop to the third, I'd provide some info on the the doctor you claimed should be shamed:

http://www.focaldystonia.net/farias.html

His first big study with results: http://www.focaldystonia.net/results.html

There is much more to check out on his site from his 3 e-books written on the subject, and testimonials. When I saw him he had treated over 600 cases. Over 68% made have made a significant, usable recovery, while around 28% made full recoveries and returned to concert careers in his initial controlled study. I know of no one else aside from Jon Gorrie that has testimonials of full recoveries.

So if you truly feel qualified and experienced enough to not cop to the third, and feel you can diagnose and/or treat FD better than Dr. Farias or received some education we've never heard of that qualifies you to diagnose me more accurately than my neurologist, you should be treating the hundreds of flamenco players afflicted with this out there, or at least traveling the world giving University lectures on the subject: http://www.focaldystonia.net/workshops.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2013 21:31:52
 
El Comanche

 

Posts: 10
Joined: Mar. 20 2011
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 25 2013 21:46:49
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2013 21:40:29
 
El Comanche

 

Posts: 10
Joined: Mar. 20 2011
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to El Comanche

I am making progress, but still have a ways to go. My latest promo vid shot 8 months into rehab:

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2013 21:48:41
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to El Comanche

If you feel you are making progress then great.

I have absolutely no interest in making a brass penny from anyone with a repeated strain injury either on the foro or in person. So I feel little pressure to provide bona fides.

I never give weight to anything which claims to be science and yet leans heavily on testimonials. This is broadly the standard approach.

I apologise for offering my opinion to you on your condition and promise you that I will not offer any more. After all everything is now in hand.

Increasingly I realise that offering advice on this and other subjects is a waste of my time and emotional energy.

So in short I will agree with you that I have nothing to offer and that is precisely what I intend to share on this, and other guitar related subjects in the future.

So to be super clear.

You are better now
I know nothing
Congratulations.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 25 2013 22:36:35
 
El Comanche

 

Posts: 10
Joined: Mar. 20 2011
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

For the rest of the FF members, I apologize for the direction this thread has taken. I hoped to share my experience and answer questions for anyone concerned about this condition that plagues so many flamenco guitarists, as well as get advice from anyone who thought they could help. This has been a very difficult year, and I have had to fight with everything I have to come back. I feel the need not to only defend myself, but others who may get FD in the future and come across this post.

As for guitarbuddha:

Really? Now you are openly patronizing and mocking me?

"If you feel you are making progress then great. "

"After all everything is now in hand."

"You are better now
I know nothing
Congratulations."

First of all, I never said I was healed. It is quite passive aggressive to imply that is how I feel when I clearly know how far I have to go. It was hard to put myself out there again when I knew I had not made a full recovery.

I've been trying to share my journey as there are few full recoveries documented from the beginning. I feel I will be one of the fortunate ones and want to share my experience.

Implying that I "feel" I'm making progress is also insulting. I went from not being able to play at all a year ago, to limited performing and recording including the above video. By any standard that could be measured as progress.

"I apologise for offering my opinion to you on your condition".
I never said you had nothing to offer in terms of what was wrong in the movement of my hands. In fact I found your comments quite observant and relevant. I've seen a few of your previous posts and you seem to have a lot to offer in terms of biomechanics. I don't know if you have or have had FD as you didn't share this with me. It would have been nice to have an exchange of ideas and solutions. It certainly would be much more helpful for the forum.

What I took issue with was you saying that I did not have FD and that my therapist was ripping me off. I would avoid such blanket statements regarding a condition as serious as this. Dr. Farias has dedicated his life to this cause and is far from greedy. He has been very generous with me. Separate from that, the basis for everything he has taught me has been to heal myself, and to not need him. There is no doctor or therapist that can heal you, but a good guide can be great to have in your corner.

When folks can't admit that they are wrong or made a mistake in spite of overwhelming facts and evidence, that they are wrong, it can be described as Cognitive Dissonance. Something to consider, and may help with your own playing issues if you are still having any. I've certainly had to take a look a my many flaws in order to get on a path to recovery.

I've spent way too much time here the last 24 hrs. Back to practice . . .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2013 2:57:16
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to El Comanche

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Comanche


1)When folks can't admit that they are wrong or made a mistake in spite of overwhelming facts and evidence, that they are wrong, it can be described as Cognitive Dissonance.

2)Something to consider, and may help with your own playing issues if you are still having any.

3)I've certainly had to take a look a my many flaws in order to get on a path to recovery.

4)I've spent way too much time here the last 24 hrs. Back to practice . . .



1)Or it can just make talking to them unrewarding.

2)My playing issues, like my interest in discussing FD, are in the past.

3)Still why not take the time to focus on my flaws.

4)Six months might seem like a long time to wait before provoking an argument but I for one am grateful for this timely reminder not to care or try and help.


As I said before I will take responsiblilty for being arrogant and insensitive. I am rather tired of apologising in the face of continued beligerance on this foro so I have decided to stop doing so.

If anyone remains uninformed then why apologise for it ? Being uninformed has a sole victim, oneself.

One may REGRET being uninformed whilst insisting upon the conditions that perpetuate it. This is also cognitive dissonance.

In the same way as one may try and help and have ones good intentions thrown back in one's face and one's motivations questioned by people who are clearly confused as to their own.

I am by no means restricting this observation to you.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 26 2013 11:52:57
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to a_arnold

quote:




quote:

ORIGINAL: Turron
I don't know how professional flamenco players avoid injury.


They don't.

We get to hear about some of them (eg. Nunez) and those of us interested in the subject encounter many more.

Back in 2003 a paper in a performing arts medecine journal published research into pro guitarists (classical and flamenco) in Andalucia who played for 3 hours or more per day.

Of the 64 who too part, 62% of the classical guitarists were affected by overuse syndrome vs 87% of the flamenco guitarists. The paper goes on to explain why, in terms of the physical demands if the techniques.

Statistically, pianist and guitarists are more prone to injury than any other musicians (several studies on that one) and flamenco guitar is just about the riskiest guitar pursuit out there.





_____________________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/GuitarristaAD
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2013 9:30:11
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Elie

We're all Dangermen!

Mountain climbers and test pilots are poooseeeee.

Anyway, I was enjoying buddha's contribution. This ain't no self-help group for hysterical ilnesses (and I am not taking the pss, I know they are real, with physical consequences). Honestly, I am serious, this is a dreadful thing to suffer. I'm snookered. I click a fckng mouse all day (to do a job I like) and then I try to play my silent guitar so loud I can hardly hear the telly.

We get that it is real mate. No question. But you'll get different takes here. I think it's important to hear even a train-of-thought sceptical approach.

R. D. Laing actually cured people of dreadful, real, ailments by, amongst other things, telling his patients that memories of horrors that really plagued them, were real. Now they only had to deal with the reality; they were too focussed on the story. For example, would one have FD if one did not have it on an instrument? It seems only to happen to good players but that's a hoary chestnut.

What if one got it in the computer mouse department (I can't backspace fast no mo') but the one could play the piano or the nose flute?

What's the percentage of digeridooists with FD? Digeridoo is dangerous too with all those boomerangs flying about.

You are dealing with your curse. Good. Really.

Keith Jarret's thayng is the strangest of all. When neuroscience is cheap (scans n stuff) maybe we'll get to the bottom of some of these things. (I want a portable ibrainer built into my oculus rift so that I can watch my brain singing when I play, like Homer Simpson.)

Too many percentages... Must.... Must.......
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2013 15:08:56
 
duendesoul

Posts: 32
Joined: Nov. 10 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Pingaloka

Hi, sorry to here about this condition.
But asides to curing it, I would suggest trying Picado with I - A fingers.
I had to do this for a while as I developed Trigger Finger in my M finger last year.
A couple steroid shots in the finger helped avoid surgery.
Best of luck.

_____________________________

"greetings from Charleston, South Carolina"
http://www.reverbnation.com/dorichitayat
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2013 13:23:24
 
rombsix

Posts: 7622
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to duendesoul

Never seen this before with the gloves...

https://youtu.be/wOVGrGBeqiI?t=4m25s

From 4:25 until 12:27 is about focal dystonia and was quite interesting...

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2016 3:14:39
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

Never seen this before with the gloves...

https://youtu.be/wOVGrGBeqiI?t=4m25s

From 4:25 until 12:27 is about focal dystonia and was quite interesting...


Nancy Byl's work on sensory re-education first suggested latex gloves for FD. However, it is merely a sensory trick, not a cure or any kind of treatment, and for most people the positive affect soon wears off (if the guy in the video has a lasting affect he is lucky). It does at least demonstrate to those new to the condition/recently diagnosed that there is nothing wrong with the hands and fingers and that the problem is a sensory-motor one.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2016 7:49:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13512
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to rombsix

I finally figured out the cause and solution of this strange horror illness. Vitamin D deficiency. Take supplements or get more sun.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2016 12:05:38
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1765
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ricardo

Is there anything of interest in the historical record?

After all, ours isn’t the first generation that’s practised like maniacs: it goes back to at least the days of Chopin, and probably before — I seem to remember there’s a warning about over-practising in A Varietie of Lute Lessons (1610).

Then what about all those sitar-players like Ravi Shankar and Vilayat Khan? Perhaps Indian medicine has something to say? Or not?

P.S. And why didn’t Paco and Ramón get it?

In the ’60s there was a quote from some prominent conductor (I forget whom) that “In music, technique never improves after the age of 16 — only interpretation”, which gave rise to an extremely sardonic and amusing reply article in B.M.G by (the late) Peter Sensier.

But can t be that youth does indeed provide protection? Has anyone under 16 had it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2016 16:45:40
 
Lorenzo714

Posts: 76
Joined: Oct. 8 2013
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ricardo

Ramzi, you don't need any supplements! I have the solution.....MOVE TO FLORIDA!!!

_____________________________

Lorenzo Bonc
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp9GaFPV-Ax4mR-ZoGzYmyg
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2016 2:58:29
 
orsonw

Posts: 1622
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

Is there anything of interest in the historical record?


1830 Robert Schumann. It wasn't widely recognised until the past few decades.

For more on focal dystonia:

Here is a 2013 review that's understandable for the enquiring lay person.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3580790/

or a simple overview of current understanding here.
http://www.dystonia.org.uk/index.php/about-dystonia/types-of-dystonia/focal-hand-dystonia/musicians-dystonia-musicians-cramp
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2016 7:26:06
Page:   <<   <   1 2 3 [4] 5    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 2 3 [4] 5    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.09375 secs.