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Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to El Comanche

quote:

ORIGINAL: El Comanche

Focal Dystonia has almost nothing to do with technique. On the contrary, focusing on technique when FD kicks in only makes it worse.


If that be true, shouldn´t I and others have worsened by attempts to fight FD by making out straining habits and relearning techniques fom scratch without antagonist interference?


quote:

ORIGINAL: El Comanche

Playing too hard. A movement can become dystonic very quickly with just the right amount of excess force for an extended time. Perhaps that crazy agressive tremolo he had did some damage, who knows.


From what I recall exessive neuronal firing will have synapsis in the cortex allocated to individual limbs overlap / merge together.
Such excessive neuronal firing as I think to understand will be happening where no more muscle triggering can be executed.

Hence, in a case of actual saturation as you describe it, when an already maximal execution is being tried to exceed, but also in only secondarily saturated appearing situation when increase can´t be had due to a blockade.
A muscular and neuronal blockade due to antangonists working against each other during countering mutual engagement.
A phenomenon in physical disciplines occuring more often than you might expect.

After all, mastery in pretty much all fields quite means to avoid exessive engagement during execution.

If there iis something wrong with this explanation, please correct me.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2013 15:24:07
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14642
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

Forget about hands and mic's and even the guitar and look at the videos again I am sure you will get what I mean. Maybe think of it like this, if younger and older Gererdo were to stand up and have a game of badminton who do you think would win ? (and I'm not being weird or facetious here but I don't think you are getting what I mean by posture,,,, it has absolutely nothing to do with the guitar.)


Ok, you and guitarbuddha seeing the same thing I am not. Perhaps you all are reading too much into the face expression? Cuz, it's a tie as far as physicality IMO. The guy being a little heavier and having aged somehow has changed how he feels sitting with a guitar I understand, but the mic issue interms of how you move in your seat is no small detail. Only real difference I see is the two guitars are different and the index finger (both points you say ignore to see the "problem").

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2013 16:51:03
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo



(both points you say ignore to see the "problem").


You don't see it, thats OK.

There is ''A' problem' that I see and you don't and that's OK. Are the mic and i finger use related to that problem, not particularly. Are they intrinsically unimportant well no, but that is not my contention.

Do i think it is 'the 'problem'' as you suggest ? No.

In general I avoid adopting a position and denying the validity of other ideas after having done so.

Other approaches are available.



D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2013 17:21:07
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14642
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

There is ''A' problem' that I see and you don't and that's OK.


You may be correct, I just wish you guys could point out exactly what it is.

(sorry that the last post was addressed to YOU but the quote in the box is Ruphus).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2013 17:48:48
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I just wish you guys could point out exactly what it is.




Hi Ricardo, I really really wish I could too. I can't, I will keep trying I guess here and there but something has to click and words don't cut it and if I try too hard then I end up being ridiculous ( see badminton sentence above).

When I see good body use I recognise it instantly. Just like when an experienced player hears a good performance they know it instantly. But it takes time and words aren't the best tool here either. And it takes pain too, pain is the great educator.

Alexander Technique is taught hands on, nothing else comes close. But like all things the teachers skill and patience can vary dramatically.


Peace.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2013 18:28:10
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

good use - graceful, efficient, relaxed, good lines

poor use - clumsy, awkward, tense, cramped, spastic

?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2013 20:53:04
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

good use - graceful, efficient, relaxed, good lines

poor use - clumsy, awkward, tense, cramped, spastic

?


That's it. I need to improve my vocabulary.

Thank you.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2013 23:05:35
 
dystoniadisease

 

Posts: 1
Joined: May 2 2013
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

Hi All ,
I am a former sufferer of dystonia and want to offer you my support if you are still struggling with this awful disorder or another movement type of neurological disorder.

I have put many years of my life into helping dystonia sufferers find relief, and through my efforts was able to get a medical study done at Johns Hopkins Medical Center with the program that helped me.

It is my pleasure and privilege to work full time in helping dystonia sufferers find relief and get educated
on the health fundamentals that I have discovered that can make a huge difference on improving one's health.

I have been effective in helping dozens of dystonia sufferers find relief and have worked with those in
26 countries and 49 states. Please feel free to call me if you would like to learn more about my work
and how I have been helping others.

There is nothing more enjoyable than seeing those I work with find the relief and hope as I received many years ago.
For more information, please visit my website at http://www.dystoniadisease.net.
Thank you.
Steve Zarren
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2013 14:01:11
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14642
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to dystoniadisease

quote:

ORIGINAL: dystoniadisease

Hi All ,
I am a former sufferer of dystonia and want to offer you my support if you are still struggling with this awful disorder or another movement type of neurological disorder.

I have put many years of my life into helping dystonia sufferers find relief, and through my efforts was able to get a medical study done at Johns Hopkins Medical Center with the program that helped me.

It is my pleasure and privilege to work full time in helping dystonia sufferers find relief and get educated
on the health fundamentals that I have discovered that can make a huge difference on improving one's health.

I have been effective in helping dozens of dystonia sufferers find relief and have worked with those in
26 countries and 49 states. Please feel free to call me if you would like to learn more about my work
and how I have been helping others.

There is nothing more enjoyable than seeing those I work with find the relief and hope as I received many years ago.
For more information, please visit my website at http://www.dystoniadisease.net.
Thank you.
Steve Zarren


So food will fix it? What food?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2013 14:32:05
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to dystoniadisease

quote:

ORIGINAL: dystoniadisease

Hi All ,
I am a former sufferer of dystonia and want to offer you my support if you are still struggling with this awful disorder or another movement type of neurological disorder.

I have put many years of my life into helping dystonia sufferers find relief, and through my efforts was able to get a medical study done at Johns Hopkins Medical Center with the program that helped me.

It is my pleasure and privilege to work full time in helping dystonia sufferers find relief and get educated
on the health fundamentals that I have discovered that can make a huge difference on improving one's health.

I have been effective in helping dozens of dystonia sufferers find relief and have worked with those in
26 countries and 49 states. Please feel free to call me if you would like to learn more about my work
and how I have been helping others.

There is nothing more enjoyable than seeing those I work with find the relief and hope as I received many years ago.
For more information, please visit my website at http://www.dystoniadisease.net.
Thank you.
Steve Zarren



I have the words for this, hold on


ffffffrrrrRRRRAAAAPPPPppapapapapppp

D.

Seriously though anyone wants me to send them my 'Special Vitamins' please give me a call so that I can calculate a price based on presumed affluence and gullability.

Tarot readings, horoscopes and assorted ****anolgy also available.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2013 14:49:02
 
Elie

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RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus



the comments on the above vid are motivating

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2013 15:48:14
 
a_arnold

 

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Pingaloka

This discussion of FD in classical, flamenco, and classically-trained crossover flamenco guitarists leads me to ask this quick question of those of you who have experienced FD affecting your picado:

When doing fast scales, do you do strict imim alternation (as many classical teachers insist) or do you sometimes let a finger slide to the next string when doing descending scales (as did Sabicas)?

I ask because I'm wondering if the sliding has the neurological effect of disrupting the repetitiveness of the strict im alternation, thereby helping the "sliders" avoid FD . . .? This, of course, is assuming the neurological hypothesis is correct in the first place . . .

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2013 16:54:50
 
rombsix

Posts: 7780
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Elie



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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 19:42:22
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

romb that player is El Comanche who posted earlier on this post

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 20:16:48
 
rombsix

Posts: 7780
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Elie

I see - I haven't been reading much lately due to super busy work. I thought the video might help some...

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 20:22:54
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

I see - I haven't been reading much lately due to super busy work. I thought the video might help some...


ana b7eb etsa2al 3lek mo aktar

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 20:31:35
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix




Check out his pinkie.

It tells you everything that is going wrong.

Simplification but useful. Two sets of muscles in forearm. One set controls movement from hand knuckle. Another the curvature of the fingers. His pinkie flexation shows that through the quintuplet he is tightening the curvature of all of his fingers. The unevenness of attack shows that instead of articulating each stroke with power from the hand joint he is rolling this tension from ulnar to dorsal. This wouldn't be so bad but in each cycle the first index finger stroke uses up most of that available tension hence the very poor volume of all other finger strokes and the gallop.

This is a simple coordination problem. He needs to articulate from hand knuckle more and develop finger independance.



Now that is not to say that having very curved fingers is a bad idea. But one should NOT aim to initiate the stroke by increasing curvature. Instead set up the appropriate curvature for you hand/nails/chosen attack on a given day and then try and provide the power from the hand joint.


He does not have focal dystonia at all. Shame on his therapist.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 20:43:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14642
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

He does not have focal dystonia at all. Shame on his therapist.


You guys are so funny. I know this is serious business but it all reads like a mish mash of concepts with no real answers.

Focal Dystonia is either:

1. Psychological performance anxiety that ego issues or perhaps (to relax before playing) drugs and therapy will fix. Emotions cause it. Joaquin (madrid) can help.

2. Neurological brain mapping problem-firing of neurons is all wacky now and you can relearn to play by looking at relaxed movements and stating over with techniques ignoring accuracy. Joaquin (sevilla) can help with this.

3. A physical issue relating to opposing uses of muscle and tendon groups...ergonomical examined detailed technique changes and body posture changes will fix this (starting from ZERO as a player).

4. An issue of diet that a special food or foods will help you regain control over your "spasms" or whatever.

Sorry but it is either ONE Of these or none of these. My personal feeling is that it is number 1 only. If not you got to deal with trying a new name for this thing or admit that it is different ailments that are resulting in SIMILAR symptoms affecting playing. Something like tendonitous or arthritis are much more obvious to diagnose, but not always so clear at first signs.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 21:32:35
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Focal Dystonia.


It occurred to me that I haven't read any accounts of classical guitarists other than David Leisner having physical muscle problems and doing some googling I came across this article on Glen Gould, the supreme instrumentalist of his era, and while I have read 2 bios of him I never suspected that he had physical problems himself. This paper makes very interesting reading as to how a musician of Gould's facility had to deal with the physical aspect of playing.

http://www.handoc.com/Documents/GOULD_Tubiana20001.pdf
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 21:37:18
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

Im going to stop playing for a few months. my R index finger is not getting any better.
should I keep practicing ligado with my left hand or just stop playing all together?

cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2013 1:28:07
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

HolyEvil I think both of us are not seeing a doctor right? may i suggest something as a sufferer of FD ?

a week ago I tried to change my approach regarding this matter. remember that article by Jason W. Solomon talking about the Sensorimotor retraining?
he said " I no longer think to myself: "I will now practice the guitar." instead, I think: "I will now touch my guitar." I consider practicing to be a form of sensorimotor training.

pick up a piece that is kinda simple for example P I or P M or P A with some rasgueados where you dont need to fight dystonic movements
I remember that you faced problems with 'p-i-m-a-m-i arp' pattern so 'P I P I, P A P A, P M P M' should be fine I assume , right ?

enjoy playing it, don't fight the dystonic movements and dont let them present , avoid doing anything that cause the dystonic movements to happen ... I came to the conclusion that if you try to fight the problem it self you wont solve anything instead you might make it worse
so just enjoy the music and let your brain trust your fingers again and know they are there (away from the dystonic movements) , who knows your brain might forget the dystonic moves all of a sudden

I now stopped playing appoyando , im just having fun with tirando also dont plant the thumb Solomon suspect that his long history of thumb planting is partially (if not largely) responsible for his own dystonia.

I think this is better than quit playing
I hope what i said was clear enough to understand

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2013 9:46:07
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Elie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elie

Solomon suspect that his long history of thumb planting is partially (if not largely) responsible for his own dystonia.


I think my problem to beconnected to such.
The majority here who joined former corresponding discussion didn´t like the idea, but a thumb that is busy flexing from its base will interefere and hinder the fingers apparatus, provoking contra and strain.


And what you can do neuronally without the thumb resting you can control just the easier when resting later on ( after having well developed fingers / being familiar with how unhindered finger motorics feel / avoiding strain in the thumb base, or at least exessive strain like `to be seen´in the drawing.
-

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elie

enjoy playing it, don't fight the dystonic movements and dont let them present , avoid doing anything that cause the dystonic movements to happen ... I came to the conclusion that if you try to fight the problem it self you wont solve anything instead you might make it worse


I think "Yes!" in general and "No" in the way you suggest.
If fighting it means to be going on in the simultanous engagement of countering muscle groups with only putting in additional neural firing, then abbsolutely agreed.

If fighting it however is to mean executing techniques in microsteps and slow motion whilst strictly avoiding superlfuous / unrelated neural and muscular engagement, then I am having a hard time to believe it could be counter productive.

Ruphus

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2013 16:50:18
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

(Although this is addressed to Ruphus it is for all sufferers and it is pretty grumpy)

If the hand looks ugly then you are probably doing something wrong. But if you have to look to see then you are not paying attention.

Thumb planting is GOOD WHEN DONE WELL, BAD WHEN DONE BADLY.

Try not to have much as concern with what is right. Be far more interested with doing things well. If you plant your thumb then don't plant it stiffly and clumsily.

The string isn't making your thumb stiff, YOU ARE. A string cannot influence the stiffness of your muscles it is not part of your nervous sustem . Lifting it off the string is irrelevant to your ability to relax it whilst articulating the other fingers.

A big advantage to planting (of any finger) is the amount of feedback it gives your senses.

OK. I could go on but guys .....COME ON avoiding something that all the greats do because of an observation by someone self diagnosed about something that may or may not be contributing to a problem that they haven't solved is just well..... FLAKEY.

There is no simple answer to repetitive strain injuries except play better . Less clumsy, less oblivious to your hands and indeed to your whole body.

Wacky avoidance of perfectly natural postures and proven practice strategies will just keep you going round in circles.

And, as obvious as this might seem, go and get a better teacher and do what he/she says. And if they don't know what you are talking about or they haven't got any solid solutions find someone else, in the real world. BUT, and this is really important, LEARN TO BE MORE SUSPICIOUS OF SALESMEN THAN YOU ARE OF SMART PEOPLE.

Try not to be fascinated by each and every new untested idea at the expense of actually following through on the previous one.

I have absolutely no difficulty in playing all day and for hours on end without a break and with no pain. I am 41 when I was 22-29 I was in pain pretty much all the time and this would get steadily worse after I started playing. Some days just terrible. Now nothing ZIP.... NIL ....NADA no pain no problem.

Now I am sure that I have mentioned that here well just loads of times but let me be more clear. I used to have problems with my hands and NOW I DON'T, they are better than ever I am super confident that they will stay that way.

Things are better now than they ever were before and still getting better .


This means paying attention to your whole body as much as possible. This is the opposite of learning to do something 'right' and then forgetting about.

Imagine you are spinning a plate on top of a pole. Stop paying attention and the plate falls off.

Well if you stop paying attention to your body then **** starts going wrong. Answer pay attention, listen to it.

Like the plate on the pole it will always need some attention.


So much of this debate is totally wrong headed. I have been recommending two books about this for around seven years noone has read them.

Still no need for anyone to think about what I might mean I am sure that a different idea will present itself for five minutes of consideration.

And that's what the internet is for.... right ? It is not about being alert to actual answers it is about going round in circles with the same question for ever.

It's like an AA meeting where everyone is still drinking but somehow super supportive. And here I am the guy who hasn't touched a drop for nine years and my advice isn't any better. In fact I'm the a$$hole.

D.

Now go on, someone tell me their problem is different from mine and that I don't understand ........so I can throw my hands up in the air.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2013 23:45:02
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

From what I know about Alexander technique it makes a lot of sense.
And a study from 2008, so I read on Wikipedia, found that already 6 hours of it helped patience with back problems.
( The basic insight behind the AT - about unconscious habitual misconceptions- after all is the very one why I believe that the "everyone to his own approach" bears the risk of vast self-hindering playing careers. - As we have it with a playing majority that hasn´t went too efficiently.)

And a realizing of whole-body concept you can for one see in threads where I state that the most suiting playing will be had standing with a harness that holds the guitar centered, and with how I point to steering outer limbs from further up the arms, shoulders and back, hip ... till down to the feet / thus standing position.

Yet, I don´t think it useless to understand how FD comes about with the extremities, on a way to bettering or prophylaxis even.

I think that you are mistaking with the claim that resting of the thumb was all the same unhindering, independently of how.
Fact is that a resting of the thumb in accordance to how much it must arrest the hand from dropping / how much weight it must hold ( -> posture), does involve contraction of the thumb base muscles in order to keep the thumbs angle from spreading.
In some other thread I had uploaded a drawing that showed well how thouse thumb muscles cross those of the fingers.

And if you hold on to feedback the situation you will see how the fingers get hindered the more the thumb base spasms.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2013 9:57:02
 
guitarbuddha

 

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Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus



I think that you are mistaking with the claim that resting of the thumb was all the same unhindering, independently of how.
Fact is that a resting of the thumb in accordance to how much it must arrest the hand from dropping / how much weight it must hold ( -> posture), does involve contraction of the thumb base muscles in order to keep the thumbs angle from spreading.


Ruphus


Hi Ruphus, I appreciate the cordiality of your reply given the lack in mine of last night.

It is always the hidden assumptions that are most insidious. I spotted one there so I would like to explain for your consideration.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus



how much weight it must hold ( -> posture), does involve contraction of the thumb base muscles in order to keep the thumbs angle from spreading.


Ruphus


There is absolutely no need for the thumb to take any of the weight of the hand whatsoever. The rest of the arm and trunk should evenly distribute muscle tone so the the hand is free. Think about it, by your logic lifting the thumb off of the strings would cause the arm to flop down. Do you see the contradiction ?

If someone was using a compas and said 'it works better with the needle off the table' you would suggest that that is not the case. If they then say 'well actually it does because when you push down on the table the needle snaps'....... so you might say 'you shouldn't push down so hard' then they say 'well I don't have a choice because my arm weighs about twelve kilos and gravity is fixed'. So on and so forth these arguments can go on for ever. One person has no problem and can easily draw perfect circles and the other 'wins' the argument.

This is my experience of the internet.

You YOU YOU are absolutely in charge of how much excess tension there is in the body. Believing that excess tension is an inevitable result of a given posture is not productive. (im gonna repeat that BELIEVING THAT EXCESS TENSION IS AN INEVITABLE RESULT OF A GIVEN POSTURE IS WRONG) Such a belief is an indication of a lack of sensitivity ( not paying attention) which comes as a result of a long time being tense and gradually not noticing. You need to learn to notice the subconscious assumptions that lead to massive and static tension. You should not believe they are inevitable, which is another kind of ignoring, because that is untrue and unhelpful.

D.

Four addendums.

1. There was nothing accidental about the compas analogy.
2. Alexander Technique can really only be understood with the guidance of a good teacher (anyone telling you otherwise is trying to sell you a book/video/magic beans).
3. Lots of flamenco players (Tomatito/PDL for instance) build up a lot of tension in the dorsal hand joint muscle when they play and very deliberately, they do this to make the whole hand tense so that it can 'brace itself' for a SHORT picado run. And then they stop and their hand position is very fluid. Because they are in control of a and manipulating the tension deliberately and to great effect.
4. Grishas Thumb comes off the sixth string only to play another bass note or to make room for picado.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2013 11:06:51
 
Blondie#2

 

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Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:


Thumb planting is GOOD WHEN DONE WELL, BAD WHEN DONE BADLY.
(snip)

Wacky avoidance of perfectly natural postures and proven practice strategies will just keep you going round in circles.


FD is such a complex issue, and debating what might contribute is often futile, especially I have to say with people who haven't experienced it - and that's not meant as a dig at you, that's a general observation of lots of well meaning players.

Just want to make two points - first, I wholeheartedly agree with the thrust of your post which is about good use of the body, awareness, etc. and I agree that the more one does that, the less risk of any kind of injury.

But secondly - whilst planting fingers in fast arpeggios, or thumb planting on bass strings whilst playing scales or arps or doing other things are indeed fine if approached 'correctly' (and i agree that simply advising against them and other techniques is a bit daft if you want to be able to play), if you DO have FD then avoiding specific techniques or approaches may be EXACTLY what is required to help you recover. But this is an individual thing and one cannot generalise.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2013 14:13:34
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Blondie#2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blondie#2



But secondly - whilst planting fingers in fast arpeggios, or thumb planting on bass strings whilst playing scales or arps or doing other things are indeed fine if approached 'correctly' (and i agree that simply advising against them and other techniques is a bit daft if you want to be able to play), if you DO have FD then avoiding specific techniques or approaches may be EXACTLY what is required to help you recover. But this is an individual thing and one cannot generalise.


Thank you for your considered reply.
There is a difference between recovery from acute and chronic injury. During the acute stage then simply avoiding doing things which aggravate an injury is a good idea. This lasts typically a few days but maybe a few weeks. When it becomes chronic then avoiding movements can prolong symptoms as the very muscle groups and coordination strategies which are nessecary for long term health and learning are being avoided. This builds in weakness due to muscular atrophy and also psychological insecurity and fear.

The conversation about FD (which virtually noone has by the way) and related issues has being going on ( in this and other threads) longer than the acute stage of any hand injury I ever heard of. It is in my opinion time to look at long term strategies. I am afraid that that means, for me, talking honestly about DELUSIONAL THINKING.

Others may think the conversation will be enriched by recommending new rabbits feet. I will not be cheering.


D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2013 14:26:22
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

There is absolutely no need for the thumb to take any of the weight of the hand whatsoever. The rest of the arm and trunk should evenly distribute muscle tone so the the hand is free. Think about it, by your logic lifting the thumb off of the strings would cause the arm to flop down. Do you see the contradiction ?


It is the opposite way around.
When you rest the tumb routingly, chances are that you might not come to posture that enables RH poise position before the soundhole.

Educate yourself a bit on the physiology. http://www.egta.co.uk/content/restandfree#IIa

Also read up on what FD actually is.
Then come back and be convinced.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2013 16:10:10
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

There is absolutely no need for the thumb to take any of the weight of the hand whatsoever. The rest of the arm and trunk should evenly distribute muscle tone so the the hand is free. Think about it, by your logic lifting the thumb off of the strings would cause the arm to flop down. Do you see the contradiction ?


It is the opposite way around.
When you rest the tumb routingly, chances are that you might not come to posture that enables RH poise position before the soundhole.

Educate yourself a bit on the physiology. http://www.egta.co.uk/content/restandfree#IIa

Also read up on what FD actually is.
Then come back and be convinced.

Ruphus


Ruphus please bear in mind which of us has a problem.

Trying to win this argument will get you nowhere. If your current understanding was adequate you would not have any problems.

Please save the condescending advice, it is not appropriate, I am sure you know this, so who are you trying to impress ?

I think that you would be better served rereading my posts over a long period and letting them sink in.

Obviously if you continue in this vein it will not be possible for any meaningful discussion to take place. And terribly tedious for me because I pretty much predicted you would take exactly this tack (see quote below from my previous post).



'If someone was using a compas and said 'it works better with the needle off the table' you would suggest that that is not the case. If they then say 'well actually it does because when you push down on the table the needle snaps'....... so you might say 'you shouldn't push down so hard' then they say 'well I don't have a choice because my arm weighs about twelve kilos and gravity is fixed'. So on and so forth these arguments can go on for ever. One person has no problem and can easily draw perfect circles and the other 'wins' the argument.'


I know you are confused and worried. But postulating similar confusion in others is not helping you.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2013 16:22:59
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

If someone esle has been readingthe the above please tell us where the logical gap is.

And to you Guitarbuddha,

People who are not used to pragmatic argumentation have difficulties to realize it when they see it, as they are used to aims of defending oneself.

Take the above posts an show them to a number of people and see what they might find. Should they have a bit of physiological understanding, just the better, but just logical attention will do as well.

Ruphus

PS:
And what you suggest as indiscribable I find understandably described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_technique
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2013 16:37:00
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