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RE: Focal Dystonia.   You are logged in as Guest
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guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

Best of luck with your problems.


D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2013 16:40:06
 
Viva Sabicas

Posts: 3
Joined: Apr. 27 2006
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to sam dds

If you go to" Musicians With Focal Dystonia Bulletin Board," under the forum title: "Rubber Band," or my name: Richard Lewis, you will see how a lack of zinc in the diet may be the cause of focal dystonia. I have focal dystonia myself since I was 49. But at the age of 65 I increased my zinc intake along with vitamin B-6 on an empty stomach, and my focal dystonia in my left hand was lessened by over 50%. It seems that copper in the diet can bring on the focal dystonia and zinc seems to reduce the copper...Brass mouth pieces also have a lot of copper and trumpet players are getting the focal dystonia in their lips, which proves the zinc/copper connection....I also notice that if I do a lot of scales on the guitar, since I also play the flamenco guitar, and the piano, my left hand moves faster after about 20 minutes...You need to get the blood into the hand. Maybe the zinc is being directed there...I also notice that dark chocolate seems to help my playing as well...Dark chocolate seems to suppress the over firing of the brain's neurons as well as the amino acid Glycine, GABA, Taurine....they also can reduce the over firing of the brain's neurons which are short circuiting the 4th and 5th fingers of my left hand...The brain seems to be confused when the fingers are moving too fast...There is also a great article about how a guitarist overcame his focal dystonia by doing certain exercises. The title of the article is: What Every Guitarist Should Know: A Guide to the Prevention and Rehabilitation of Focal Hand Dystonia," by Jason W. Solomon....Every one who has focal dystonia in the hand should read this very important article..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2013 22:16:44
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Viva Sabicas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viva Sabicas
It seems that copper in the diet can bring on the focal dystonia and zinc seems to reduce the copper...Brass mouth pieces also have a lot of copper and trumpet players are getting the focal dystonia in their lips, which proves the zinc/copper connection..


Umm.. no it doesn't. There is zero research to support your theory and actually the evidence in FD research proves the opposite - did you know which musicians are most at risk from focal dystonia, statistically?

It's pianists, and I'm having trouble seeing a 'copper poisoning' effect there, unless pianists are all playing the pedals barefoot these days.

Second most at risk group: guitarists. Now unless the copper is leeching through those silver windings and poisoning us, that knocks a hole in your theory too.

If copper poisoning was truly the cause of FD, then surely brass players would be the most affected?

Zinc pills and chocolate to cure FD? Sorry this really is just new age nonsense. Its an attempt to blame FD wholly on the environment, and toxins within it, and avoid taking any kind of responsibility for how we understand and use our own bodies. It also takes the new age path of treating ourselves through supplements, just like the guy who spammed the board earlier in the thread selling his snake oil miracle cure.

I wish you luck with your recovery, and I have to say the placebo effect can be incredibly powerful in curing/improving all kinds of ailments - just look at the people who buy homeopathic remedies. Belief is a powerful thing.

There have been some useful suggestions on that bulletin board you mention over the years, but equally lots of 'out there' wacky theories that individuals dream up by making tenuous connections to areas of science they really do not understand.

The Jason Solomon article you mention has some useful info for those not familiar with the condition - no mention of copper/zinc/chocolate I note. His route to recovery is all about careful retraining through increased awareness, ensuring variety in practice, avoiding tension etc which is mostly good advice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2013 8:05:41
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Blondie#2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blondie#2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viva Sabicas
It seems that copper in the diet can bring on the focal dystonia and zinc seems to reduce the copper...Brass mouth pieces also have a lot of copper and trumpet players are getting the focal dystonia in their lips, which proves the zinc/copper connection..


Umm.. no it doesn't. There is zero research to support your theory and actually the evidence in FD research proves the opposite - did you know which musicians are most at risk from focal dystonia, statistically?

It's pianists, and I'm having trouble seeing a 'copper poisoning' effect there, unless pianists are all playing the pedals barefoot these days.

Second most at risk group: guitarists. Now unless the copper is leeching through those silver windings and poisoning us, that knocks a hole in your theory too.

If copper poisoning was truly the cause of FD, then surely brass players would be the most affected?

Zinc pills and chocolate to cure FD? Sorry this really is just new age nonsense. Its an attempt to blame FD wholly on the environment, and toxins within it, and avoid taking any kind of responsibility for how we understand and use our own bodies. It also takes the new age path of treating ourselves through supplements, just like the guy who spammed the board earlier in the thread selling his snake oil miracle cure.

I wish you luck with your recovery, and I have to say the placebo effect can be incredibly powerful in curing/improving all kinds of ailments - just look at the people who buy homeopathic remedies. Belief is a powerful thing.

There have been some useful suggestions on that bulletin board you mention over the years, but equally lots of 'out there' wacky theories that individuals dream up by making tenuous connections to areas of science they really do not understand.

The Jason Solomon article you mention has some useful info for those not familiar with the condition - no mention of copper/zinc/chocolate I note. His route to recovery is all about careful retraining through increased awareness, ensuring variety in practice, avoiding tension etc which is mostly good advice.


Yay
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2013 9:27:12
 
Ruphus

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RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

Blondie; word! 100% including placebo and homeopathy.
( Funny thing, the latter helped me personally after a hefty kick in the groin. The doc gave me a homeopathic pill and everything went down and returned to order. Though informed about baselessness of homeopathy and its hsitory, just telling myself like `the doc treated me´worked already.)

Interesting to me to learn that pianists are first with FD.
Because my individual case emerged from habitual engagement of extensors.
( resulting from:
# fingers starting position beyond poise / extended from get go.
# rectangular relation of fingers to strings, which requested ways for the longest finger to get around the string on retrun to starting posiition, by awkwardly engaging extending and sideways moving msucles.
# long term use of a workstations mouse with oversensible right button / constant lifting / extending of the m finger.)

My impression being that a starting movement from extension position ( hence resulting into neural over firing / blockade at the limits of the small extensor range ) of the fingers being specially prone to neural exhausting, resulting into synapsis merge in the cortex.

And piano is quite what could be suited for such tendency, when a player brings his hands into the horizontal to match the keyboard, while keeping the wrists too low however / angling them upwards.
That means pre-extension as starting position.



Ideal, whether with piano or guitar, is when the idle position is at poise. With nothing angled and the fingers slightly curled in accordance to the natural poise.

A picking / hitting of string / key then involving nothing other than a small flexor movement from finger base and after completition a "falling" back into idle by merely releasing / letting antagonists balance the finger position to idle.

Later on, as Erik suggested somewhere, active adding to the return to idle might be enhancing, but only reasonably dosed and timed, which will only be possible after antagonist ballancing has been firmly imprinted first.

I suggest to beware of overly enaged extensors chiefly, while watching for strain.

Who might feel tempted to give such focus a try for a little while ( or even just minutes) may afterwards feed back here about positive or negative effects observed.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2013 10:28:14
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

but only reasonably dosed and timed, which will only be possible after antagonist ballancing has been firmly imprinted first.



I suggest to beware of overly enaged extensors chiefly, while watching for strain.




Who might feel tempted to give such focus a try for a little while ( or even just minutes) may afterwards feed back here about positive or negative effects observed.


Ruphus



Firstly Ruphus I want to apologise for being brusque the other day, I was grumpy and insensitive. I hope we can agree not the pick up where we left off

Above I quoted three clauses from your last post.

I can report that paying close attention to strain ( in particular during warm-up) pays off, especially over the long term.

Where I would urge caution is in the first phrase about 'firmly imprinting'. This is where problems can arise. Remember the plate spinning analogy earlier ? Well imagine trying to 'firmly imprint' balancing the plate, with the idea of forgetting about it and going on to something else.

Of course the plate would fall off as soon as you stopped thinking about it. Now certainly with practice you would need to commit less and less of your conscious mind to it. But it would always need just a little part of your attention. And course the really important thing is that you always need to keep moving and adjusting (which is why I chose that plate spinning analogy), as soon as you get it 'right' the system stiffens up.

Alexander Technique is really all about that. The plate is your head and the pole is your whole body. There is no right or wrong position, you just gotta keep things spinning, as soon as you stiffen up the plate falls. It is the opposite of posture in a way.

I believe that 'firmly ingraining' is what leads to problems like FD and the neuro sicence bears this out. I truly believe that the route to improved body use is through CONTINUOUS awareness and CONTINUOUS discovery. Just trying for few minutes is like just looking at the road for a few minutes whilst driving.

Now I can't know for sure precisely what you meant by 'firmly ingraining'. But it is good to look for clues in our use of language which help to identify where we are getting stuck .

(This certainly applies to me as we got stuck the other day because of my lack of care in the use of language. Again I apologise and I take responsibility for the negative escalation.)

Please be aware that I am present in this thread only to try and help and also to warn away from cul-de-sacs where I have had direct experience.

I do not deal well with contradiction well and have a tendancy towards pomposity. Please be assured that I have nothing but the kindest intentions and that, although what I say may seem a bit weird, I am very happily on the other side of RSI difficulties.

If what I say seems to contradict a belief that you hold earnestly then that may actually be the start of the unlocking process. In particular if it makes you angry, because this is often a harbinger of deep learning.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2013 11:39:11
 
Ruphus

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RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

No worries, GB,

I wasn´t that offended, but your care is certainly appreciated.

I think if you had seen of my posts in former threads you might had realized that the wholy and the particular belong to the same thing.
And possibly indeed some language items might have been cleared. Like "posture"* for instance wich mustn´t mean to be static at all and basically deals with center and lever. ( * Maybe you have been thinking of "posing" like models for photography do?)

In terms of what I mean with imprints, these don´t mean somethings static either, but a supporting base for all kinds of demands.

To illustrate we need to take into consideration that there is the vegetative nervous system and the somatic one. Of both of which sections can be trained to become part of the other.

And there are functions that are controlled alternatingly by both nervous systems.
Like breath for instance.

As you certainly know todays individuals in given civilisations often do not breath very efficiently on "default modus" ( which is running on "automatic", but mustn´t be natural in the same time ), and one can consciously ( somatically) train the breathing for higher efficiency. And if you train only regularly / often enough the improved breathing will become habitual and "default" / vegetative.
Once the breathing has been `tweaked back to natural´ it can serve as a base to improve further physical ( and mental) conditions.

Similar when I speak of imprinting. Like above, meant is re-repogramming of bad habits.
In the above posts example, hence learning the feeling of least-effort and training regularly with it until a clean undisturbed execution may have become normal.
Then, when firm, other techniques will conseuqently be much easier to learn or to correct as well.


I am not sure whether I agree with on one of your points however.

Focus will be needed during exploration and practising, and later every other time for check / refreshing, but shouldn´t be requirred all the time.
Hopefully, one shall reach to where effortless playing may be happening while your thoughts being with the music, not the execution.

As a Wing Tsun man, I can say that there you learn chi sao for it to become fully involuntary. ( When extremely trained I would even wake up from explosively "fighting away" and controlling the blanket when it would twine around me too firmly, hehehe. - And once, while I was sleeping, a gril friend after a movement of her was only safed from harm due to immediate control of the situation. With the body "thinking" faster than oneself.)

I understand the goal of all high art being to achieve a certain effect through least efforts, and to come to executing with as little conscious action as possible. ( Which again and naturally takes jsut the more conscious training meticulously / large scaled beforehand.)

So, if you want: For care-free level one needs extra care on the way to there.
And vice versa:
The less ergonomically / physiologically intelligent the focus with practising beforehand, the more large-scale / conscious engagement it wil thus be needing to execute.
I think.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2013 16:24:21
 
Viva Sabicas

Posts: 3
Joined: Apr. 27 2006
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

The zinc cure works not only for me, but for many others. If you had checked out the comments at the "Musicians With Focal Dystonia Bulletin Board," under my name: Richard Lewis, you would have had all the proof of how zinc helped many other sufferers.
Along with the zinc and vitamin B-6 you have to take on an empty stomach, the amino acids I mentioned have the effect of slowing down the brain's neurons that are over firing and short circuiting the nerves of the affected fingers of the hand....
What have you to lose by trying out this advice....You should also read an article on copper toxicity by Dr. Lawrence Wilson MD called: "Copper Toxicity Syndrome." It is a ten page article which covers all the affects of copper on the body.......
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2013 18:54:46
 
aeolus

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Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

ay ya yay
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2013 20:32:59
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
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RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Viva Sabicas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Viva Sabicas
The zinc cure works not only for me, but for many others. If you had checked out the comments at the "Musicians With Focal Dystonia Bulletin Board," under my name: Richard Lewis, you would have had all the proof of how zinc helped many other sufferers.


I've already read it but i went back to see - three people who believe it helped does not equate to proof. Plenty of people believe the world is flat, that does not provide proof the world is flat.

Have a look at 'placebo' on wikipedia. If you are experiencing improvements, great, but attributing it to zinc and chocolate is a bit like saying eating apples will improve your golf swing.

quote:


.You should also read an article on copper toxicity by Dr. Lawrence Wilson MD called: "Copper Toxicity Syndrome." It is a ten page article which covers all the affects of copper on the body.......


I did, it's a cracker. Too much copper, it seems, can be blamed for just about every ailment under the sun. Has this stuff been published in a proper journal and peer reviewed?

First thing I noted was that chocolate is high in copper, which seems to contradict what you said earlier? You said chocolate helps your playing yet you are promoting the theory that too much copper causes FD?

The article is certainly interesting:

(quote) "Copper and world violence. Copper tends to enhance all the emotions, so violence can occur far more in those with copper excess – a common problem today in many parts of the world.
America is actually better in this regard because we can afford more beef and other meats. These foods are among the highest foods in zinc that balances copper in the body. Nations that cannot afford much meat may have worse copper imbalance"

So there you go, America is far less violent (!) than other countries because Americans eat loads of meat.

Here's another one, very topical for the UK:
'Vaccination and the use of prescription drugs can aggravate a child's copper imbalance, usually by depleting the zinc level. Copper imbalance in children is associated with delayed development, attention deficit disorder, anti-social and hyperactive behavior, autism, learning difficulties and infections such as ear infections.'

So there you go, don't get your kids innoculated. This is just the kind of crap that caused the current measles epidemic in Swansea and elsewhere in the UK.

'While many factors influence our attitudes and values, the rise in tissue copper levels in both men and women in the past fifty years parallels renewed interest in women’s issues, in religious and intuitive knowledge, and other “new age” and other movements. Copper may promote or encourage these interests and activities by causing mild tissue catabolism that breaks down old tissues in the body, thus making way for the development of other types of tissues in the body. This sounds very vague, but apparently copper has this type of effect..'

This guy's a doctor? 'This sounds very vague.. but apparently...'

Full article is here in case anyone else wants a look:
http://drlwilson.com/articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2013 13:35:23
 
Elie

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Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

Clare Church: Why is it that we make progress and then it seems to disappear? Is there a physiological or neurological reason for this?

Christian Muenzner: I think it is like this: the brain cannot "repair" the affected section where the FD happens. But it can learn to use other areas for the same tasks, which is what we learn by re-training. When we play/move we can easily fall back into the old patterns, using the previous region that we used for years/decades. This is I think also where the tremors can come from. The brain is switching back and forth between those 2 areas. At first we need to use intention to play the new way before it becomes reflexive.

this discussion is from facebook

how accurate is this discussion?

what about this sentence : the brain cannot "repair" the affected section where the FD happens. ?

thank you guys.

_____________________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/GuitarristaAD
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2013 18:19:31
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
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RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Elie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elie

Clare Church: Why is it that we make progress and then it seems to disappear? Is there a physiological or neurological reason for this?

Christian Muenzner: I think it is like this: the brain cannot "repair" the affected section where the FD happens. But it can learn to use other areas for the same tasks, which is what we learn by re-training. When we play/move we can easily fall back into the old patterns, using the previous region that we used for years/decades. This is I think also where the tremors can come from. The brain is switching back and forth between those 2 areas. At first we need to use intention to play the new way before it becomes reflexive.

this discussion is from facebook

how accurate is this discussion?

what about this sentence : the brain cannot "repair" the affected section where the FD happens. ?

thank you guys.



The guy says 'I think it is like this.' So there it is, it is what he thinks.

Here's what I think, he's reaching too far.

The related issue of phantom limbs pain is very similar (where someone with an amputated arm or leg continues to feel pain ) is more intractable than FD. Principally because the limb is missing, while you still have fingers there is hope.

Certainty would be better.

Be CERTAIN that you will recover. I am not saying that on any given day you need to believe that what you are doing is the final answer, there will be missteps. Just be certain that in the end everything will be back and better than ever, and that you will have done it.

Not a doctor or shaman YOU.

D
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2013 19:22:44
 
Ruphus

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RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

The physical power of imagination.
Makes sense.

And yet, I suppose the man could be right with that layout.
It fits to my layman vision.

Imagine the cortical maps with areas for individual limbs.
The overlapping of two such sections through steadily inidistinguished operation ( FD) should be relatively easy to occure.

Not so with potential separartion.
It should be less likely that electrically merged maps would receive discretely and separate again. For what you have is a short-circuit.

It sounds plausible to me that the brain could use its re-allocating ability then and wire for two or one new substituting map.

Such neural scene mustn´t be detrimental to one´s autogene healing powers, and it could instead be useful to know of such hypothetical explanation for accepting / understanding eventually inevitable relapses before new execution is established.

Certainly better to know of an explanation for actual relapses than to give in to a feeling as if progress had only been fancied before / than surrender into pessimistic impression.
Nah?

Ruphus

PS:

I for one am glad dot have just come accross this question and its answer.
Thank you, guys!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2013 21:06:24
 
Viva Sabicas

Posts: 3
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RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Elie

Yes I know that dark chocolate contains copper, but dark chocolate has the effect of suppressing the brain's motor activity...Its the Thea Bromine in the chocolate that can kill a dog and is the substance that affects the brain.....All I know is that when I take the zinc and B-6 on an empty stomach, even without the dark chocolate, my playing of both the piano and the guitar is much better. I do not have that cramping
in my left hand as badly....The reason you have to take the zinc on an empty stomach is because certain foods which contain phytates, likee seeds, will cancel out the zinc's effect on the body and brain....The B-6 seems to help the zinc get absorbed better......Of course you have to stop eating foods that contain a lot of copper....but I still want to eat the dark chocolate!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2013 1:04:44
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Elie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elie
how accurate is this discussion?

what about this sentence : the brain cannot "repair" the affected section where the FD happens. ?



Does it matter? As GB says, it's one guys way of coming to terms with/ conceptualising FD, - but what does it matter whether retraining involves the same area of the brain or a different one for a given motor skill? How does this help you?

What we do know is:

*representation of fingers is smeared/overlapping in the brains of people with FD - proven with scans etc
*where successful retraining/improvement has taken place, representation of fingers becomes more clearly separated again

Neuroplasticity -its the reason why FD can happen (even to people with perfect mechanisms) in the first place and the reason why its theoretically possible for anyone to recover. The brain is always ready to accept new sensory input to reform its current model of how a sensory motor task should be actioned, and its the model that issues instructions as to how that task is carried out.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2013 16:38:51
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

many thanks for your comments guys.

some interesting facts from the same post :

Bob Hinz : A few thoughts/theories about this (it is the way I would describe the "disappearance," as you describe it, in my own experience): 1. Progress is so slow that it is hard to notice improvement on a day to day or week to week basis; 2. Habituation; we "acclimate" to any improvement wherein it becomes a "new normal." It just seems the same. Also, if our movements are still affected, it's easy to think that there is no improvement since, perhaps, we're comparing our current ability with what we could do before the disorder began, when things were perfectly normal. I do that all the time!; 3) improvement is often like 10 steps forward then 9 steps backward, so comparisons and measurements of progress can be difficult. If you are having a bad day, it is easy to think you did it better 3 months ago, because you had a really good day back then. For me, I try to compare the best this month with the best six months ago, and the worst this month with the worst six months ago. That seems to be a better measure for comparison. I don't know if any of this is true, but it is a way to describe what I do and how I perceive what is happening to me.

_____________________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/GuitarristaAD
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2013 18:03:21
 
a_arnold

 

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RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to Pingaloka

I may have overlooked it in this discussion, but has anyone actually done an FMRI (functional MRI of brain while using fingers) to test the overlapping neurological domain theory?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2013 21:47:58
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

Alexander Technique can really only be understood with the guidance of a good teacher


begs the question, who was F M Alexander's teacher?

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2013 22:06:00
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Alexander Technique can really only be understood with the guidance of a good teacher


begs the question, who was F M Alexander's teacher?


Ah Sophistry, the art of pretending to miss the point to irritate an adversary.

Slow night Mark ?

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2013 22:12:53
 
guitarbuddha

 

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Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to a_arnold

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold

I may have overlooked it in this discussion, but has anyone actually done an FMRI (functional MRI of brain while using fingers) to test the overlapping neurological domain theory?


Yep, lots of times, and Oliver Sacks talks about it in his book Musicophilia, mentioned near the top of the discussion. I think I first mentioned it on the foro about four years ago but it was published in 2007 which is when I read it.



D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2013 22:19:30
 
a_arnold

 

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Joined: Jul. 30 2006
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

Yep, lots of times, and Oliver Sacks talks about it in his book Musicophilia, mentioned near the top of the discussion.


*kicks self*

Thanks guitarbuddha. I can't believe I read Musicophilia and forgot/missed that . . . . . Maybe I didn't focus on that chapter because I haven't experienced FD (knock on wood). After following this thread, I expect I am vulnerable to it, though. Ever since I discovered the "secret" of a fast picado, I have tended to practice new passages mindlessly, almost like OCD. Probably not wise.

_____________________________

"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2013 22:59:41
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to a_arnold

Hi Arnold. I don't have FD but I had a mild dystonia in the second finger of the my left hand.

You can see something similar in the playing of Paul Gilbert the terrific Australian shred guitar Guru. Luckily for him he can get round it as he is mostly playing single notes ( and a lot of them ).

In my own playing it never really became a bad problem but I recently resolved it because it was getting in the way of my fledgeling attempts at Jazz. The root was, I believe that in shred style guitar ( where I am sure that I and lots of other flamencophiles cut our teeth) you tend to use the LH combos 123,124,134 a lot. It is possible to ellide the fingers 2and3 this way whenever 4 is also being used. Massive repetitive practice is only part of the problem.

I resolved mine by coming up with harmonically functioning (ie which could actually be used in making music) patterns which happened to contain this grouping 143424 which exposes the ellision and allows resolution of the mild dystonia which it caused. Also got some new chromatic licks.

D.

Do I get a prize for the nerdiest post ever ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2013 23:11:45
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

ADDENDUM with regard to previous post.

This bit might actually be interesting. On the way to trying to solve the LH second finger dystionia I initially used finger combinations focusing on alternation between 2and3 with 4, ie 0342.

Although these payed some dividends in the short term the omission of 1 lead to problems. Specifically pain and fatigue leading to clumsiness and inaccuracy. Clever as I thought they were I thought it wise to abandon them in repetitive work.

If doing a lot of repetive work it is good to use the whole hand. Think about playing tremolo, it is fairly easy to do twelve notes a second tremolo for a couple of minutes (especially classical tremolo), However with two finger alternation a couple of seconds is good going for me ( thats a couple of bars of semis at 180bpm).

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2013 23:22:00
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

Alexander Technique can really only be understood with the guidance of a good teacher
quote:

begs the question, who was F M Alexander's teacher?


quote:

Ah Sophistry, the art of pretending to miss the point to irritate an adversary.


how is that "sophistry?"

i'm not pretending anything

i'm not trying to irritate anyone, but if having someone disagree with you irritates you then i'm sorry but that's not actually my intention or my fault

if you want to decide that i'm your "adversary" that's ok but i need to point out that am not attacking you, only questioning something you said.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 14 2013 15:29:14
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Alexander Technique can really only be understood with the guidance of a good teacher
quote:

begs the question, who was F M Alexander's teacher?


quote:

Ah Sophistry, the art of pretending to miss the point to irritate an adversary.


how is that "sophistry?"

i'm not pretending anything

i'm not trying to irritate anyone, but if having someone disagree with you irritates you then i'm sorry but that's not actually my intention or my fault

if you want to decide that i'm your "adversary" that's ok but i need to point out that am not attacking you, only questioning something you said.


I thought you were yanking my chain Mark, probably because I deserve it ! And you wouldn't be the first.

'Adversary' is part of my (willfully dodgy) definition of sophistry and isn't meant to refer to you in particular.

If I had a point at all it was that we can't all reinvent the wheel. Some discoveries take a lot of uncovering. And about the book thing, in the same way that you cant learn what something truly looks like from a book (well a book without pictures anyway) or know what a concert sounded like from a review the medium for Alexander Technique is physical contact.

On reflection I have no idea at all why I thought that you should know this. I certainly didn't until I had some lessons .

I find myself apologising again for being way too touchy. Pay me no heed Mark.

I will try in future to offer more direct explanations of my views when questioned.

D.

Sorry again.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 14 2013 15:42:09
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

I really like this article, check it out mates:

http://www.dystonia-bb.org/forums/mwd/uploads/1_My_FD_story_revised.pdf

edit: I read it once in the past , I think blondie or orsnow posted it before , thanx guys

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 14 2013 16:35:54
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

I find myself apologising again for being way too touchy.
thank you

quote:

If I had a point at all it was that we can't all reinvent the wheel.

......the medium for Alexander Technique is physical contact.



This maybe somewhat different to your ideas about the Alexander Technique, but my understanding is that in order to learn Alexander's work one has to go through the same process that Alexander did.

The student has to learn Alexander's ideas and put them into practice.

This can be done without a teacher, although a teacher can be helpful.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2013 11:12:50
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to mark indigo

Alexander's tea lady explainded this in a discussion with his brother after his death.

'There is only one Alexander Technique, and that is the one Mr Alexander taught.'

There is an unbroken line, hand to hand from FM to all teachers today.

Reading a book might inspire you and all to the good. It won't really be Alexander Technique.

A book for example on massage wont massage you. If you need a massage then reading a book and telling your girlfriend what to do is probably not going to be the best way to go. (in this analogy the girlfriend is your subconscious motor responses and proprioception and you are your own consciousness).

Reading is always good for sure. But sometimes the guy who writes a book convinces himself that books are enough, and publishes more and more books and has a vested interest in overstating their effectiveness.

The guys who never read books and at times show what Alexander was on about with their body use better than he ever could with his (without his hands anyway) are naturals. People like Mohammed Ali and Nadia Comineci and Maradona. They didn't need any help. They also tended to be in fields where it was clear at all times that the instrument was the whole body.

We who take a wrong turn sometimes need a helping hand, literally.

D.

Can that be enough for now please Mark ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 15 2013 11:25:28
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

Alexander's tea lady explainded this in a discussion with his brother after his death.
cheap crack. And btw Alexander's brother AR died 8 years before him.

quote:

'There is only one Alexander Technique, and that is the one Mr Alexander taught
yes, but which one? Alexander continued to investigate how we work, and to experiment with and develop his ideas and the way he taught them throughout his life. Different people who he taught at different times have different ideas about what his work is/was. Plus a lot of the Alexander Technique is the invention or innovation of teachers who came after Alexander.

quote:

Reading a book might inspire you and all to the good. It won't really be Alexander Technique.
FM Alexander wrote 4 books and he believed that all of the answers to all of the questions his students asked could be found in them. If you don't know and understand the ideas in these books, and put them into practice, whether you learn them from a teacher or from reading the books, it won't really be the Alexander Technique.

That's enough whenever you like.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2013 22:19:10
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Focal Dystonia. (in reply to mark indigo

If I were to set about writing everything I know it would take a long time. And of course there would be interruptions.

I prefer Walter Carrington he is a better writer.

And Mark I had had enough of you when you first spoke. It has been kind of you to confirm that impression which I too hastily recanted.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2013 22:33:55
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