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RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling)
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Harry
Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada
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 RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to cRobson12)
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Well you didn't Rob but someone who has a 13 part video about selecting a flamenco guitar, in a subtle, cunning and brilliant manner, implies that these guitars are perfect and much better than guitars that cost thousands more etc....
We haven't been on this forum long, but to others on here, these guitars conjure up bad memories. I also thought of looking into these guitars, but after reading through pages and pages on these forums about them, I felt a little manipulated. Perhaps people on the forum here are worried that the same is happening to you, but I notice very few have told you straight out. Like I said though, if you find a guitar you like and that sounds flamenco and you can afford it, then go for it because there are so few opportunities to actually try a guitar before buying one in Canada. (I am guessing you are a fellow Canuck).
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
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Date Feb. 27 2011 14:11:18
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M.S.A.
Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 10 2009
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RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to estebanana)
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Stephen, you are totally right on that, these guitars are but a joke.
I have couple of issues with them and why I dislike their marketing and so on. In general, they are being offered and promoted as Barbero, Santos Hernandez, but not as ANDALUSIAN GUITAR so someone could get mislead quite a lot... [apart from their original site, where it is obvious that it's andalusian guitars brand.
thanks god they advertise them with photos mostly, so it helps to recognize andelusional one from a real guitar. rosettes look quite interesting and are well recognizable as well, but I wouldn't like having them on my guitar. they are just too ambitious and picturesque, too large for the soundboard itself. on the photos that rumbaking provided it looks quite nice though, I have to admit, some inlays are interesting, but it still doesn't make it flamenco guitar and absolutely not an ANDALUSIAN one.
I believe these are PARACHO guitars, or maybe CHINESE but certainly not spanish made.
the typical head design of these guitars and that draw some attention signify [to me] that original head designs, the recognizable signs, are cut out eventually. perhaps original maker would have given them some interesting look... so the cut-out means it tries to cover where it comes from. so I wonder if these are not bought for some ridiculous prices and resold for 15000... after being a bit changed on surface. LOL.
the advertisment and their main support they have from alleged comment from PDL... I mean, that's a serious nonsense. Paco simply says Andalusian guitars - the guitars made and originating in Andalucia, the place where gitanos and flamencos live, in south of SPAIN - are hte best. he obviously is being gentleman enough not to say straight I DON'T LIKE THIS PARACHO GUITAR... [no insult to any owner of Castillo or Navarro guitars, I myself have a decent Navarro...] but majority of paracho guitar makers are really falling into category of cheag guitar, comarable well with factory made chinese.
apart from all that - I DON'T LIKE the sound of these guitars at all. I believe it could sound quite a whole lot better if the bracing was more tradicional.
on the other hand, what needs to be said, to compare these guitars with yours or Anders guitars is just a complete misunderstanding... ((:
no comparison whatsoever.
atb
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Date Mar. 1 2011 10:51:59
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Yojimbo
Posts: 176
Joined: Feb. 7 2011
From: Toronto, Canada
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RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to M.S.A.)
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quote:
Stephen, you are totally right on that, these guitars are but a joke.
I have couple of issues with them and why I dislike their marketing and so on. In general, they are being offered and promoted as Barbero, Santos Hernandez, but not as ANDALUSIAN GUITAR so someone could get mislead quite a lot... [apart from their original site, where it is obvious that it's andalusian guitars brand.
thanks god they advertise them with photos mostly, so it helps to recognize andelusional one from a real guitar. rosettes look quite interesting and are well recognizable as well, but I wouldn't like having them on my guitar. they are just too ambitious and picturesque, too large for the soundboard itself. on the photos that rumbaking provided it looks quite nice though, I have to admit, some inlays are interesting, but it still doesn't make it flamenco guitar and absolutely not an ANDALUSIAN one.
I believe these are PARACHO guitars, or maybe CHINESE but certainly not spanish made.
the typical head design of these guitars and that draw some attention signify [to me] that original head designs, the recognizable signs, are cut out eventually. perhaps original maker would have given them some interesting look... so the cut-out means it tries to cover where it comes from. so I wonder if these are not bought for some ridiculous prices and resold for 15000... after being a bit changed on surface. LOL.
the advertisment and their main support they have from alleged comment from PDL... I mean, that's a serious nonsense. Paco simply says Andalusian guitars - the guitars made and originating in Andalucia, the place where gitanos and flamencos live, in south of SPAIN - are hte best. he obviously is being gentleman enough not to say straight I DON'T LIKE THIS PARACHO GUITAR... [no insult to any owner of Castillo or Navarro guitars, I myself have a decent Navarro...] but majority of paracho guitar makers are really falling into category of cheag guitar, comarable well with factory made chinese.
apart from all that - I DON'T LIKE the sound of these guitars at all. I believe it could sound quite a whole lot better if the bracing was more tradicional.
on the other hand, what needs to be said, to compare these guitars with yours or Anders guitars is just a complete misunderstanding... ((:
no comparison whatsoever.
atb
I infer from your remarks that you have never encountered one of these guitars "in person" so to speak, let alone play one. In which case, your post is utter nonsense to me.
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Date Mar. 2 2011 0:14:11
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Yojimbo
Posts: 176
Joined: Feb. 7 2011
From: Toronto, Canada
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RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Harry)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harry
Since you are relatively new to this forum, as am I, you may not be aware of the ugly history of these guitars, the man who pushes them, and this forum. Much has been written about this. I think these guitars are forever associated with that.
So don't take it personally. I have never played one of these guitars, but based on what went on here which I read all about in my personal research, and the questionable way they are presented, I would never consider giving one the time of day. You can just say that is my loss and that's the end of that.
Yes Harry. I gather that there is a history here that I`ve not been privy to behind all this.
I`ve met the man in real life and he seems very personable and enthusiastic about flamenco and teaching. I`ve also seen some of these guitars; however, I`m very much a newbie to guitar and I`d have trouble telling a great guitar from a piece of junk so I really have no opinion on them.
The discussion here has put me off them though, and that`s unfortunate if they are in fact quite decent.
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Date Mar. 3 2011 2:36:33
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Harry
Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada
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RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Yojimbo)
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Well,
don't forget it's easy for me to say I will never try one because I don't have access to one anyway hehe.
But yeah if you make a search you can read some of the things that went down in the past. I considered getting one, back when, and already the fact that they are not made in Spain despite much insinuations to the contrary by the name etc... was a huge turn off. Not to mention the fact that the different models are named after some of the great guitar builders of the last century. Ok, perhaps they used that builder's specifications, but come on...it is meant to be misleading I think, or else maybe it's incredible marketing, I don't know which.
In any case, you are looking for a guitar to learn on right? So you won't have too much wear on your number one guitar? Obviously, I recommend you spend 1000$ max, in which case you know the guitar you will be getting is not going to be the bomb, so really as long as it is comfortable you are set.
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
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Date Mar. 3 2011 2:43:30
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Guest
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RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to cRobson12)
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just caught up on this thread...
we have a player here [australia]who is 'endorsed' by Andalusian guitars.
he swears by them
then again he swears he has paco's secret 'string' combination
oddly his main performances are done on a conde
he offered to sell me a $12, 000 Andalusian guitar for $5000
now i hear there are models for $1000-$2000
he also claims they are made/supervised by a famous 'luthier' who cannot be named due to a contractual or legal bind to another famous guitar 'family' but he 'knows' where they are made...
transparency please? seriously....
sales pitch aside
had i met ruben [ not this guy ] with his guitars, had a thousand dollars in my pocket, and needed a guitar ... i may just walk out with one...probably feel ok till i went online...or i was asked to sell them...
truth is they sound good in that $1000-$2000 price range....whatever that means..
and you can pretend to your friends it's made in spain and paco uses them...no-one will never know the truth..[optional topic]...
true the 'history' and 'marketing' of these guitars is dodgy and lacks integrity...particularly the endorsee here in australia...
there's such an element of being 'conned'...
but if the tones resonate with you go for it...
$1000 is little money in the world of guitars..someone will always buy it from you...
if it functions as workhorse sounds a fair deal...
theres also Alvin Tofflers 'Third Wave'
it explores cloning and 'one size fits all' industrialization among other things....
think the jones experiment was also turned into a musical... the jewish kid survived and lived to play another day ...not the case in world war 2.
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Date Mar. 3 2011 14:05:40
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GuitarVlog
Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area
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RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Morante)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
Fue mal hecho, mal ajustado y sonaba regular.
That disappointing, eh? 
There was a similar situation over at delcamp.us not too long ago. There were all these brands of Smallman classical guitar copies that were being offered under various names: New Masters, Thomas Whitechapel, Goyette Guitars, and other names.
Some of these brands were fraudulently presented as having been made by Australian luthiers. Some were presented as being made in China by a team of luthiers. All were being presented as concert grade instruments and all were being offered for $1500 to $2000. One of the sellers claimed professional credentials. Some people obviously bought them online, on eBay and on CraigsList.
But then folks on delcamp.us did their own research and it can be followed in this thread:
http://www.delcamp.us/viewtopic.php?t=39935
The topic contains posts with glowing reviews from two owners ... posted just before they sold their guitars on eBay. These owners never returned to the forum after their guitars sold.
In a nutshell:
- These guitars came from the SinoMusik (aka Aersi) factory in China. http://www.sinomusik.com/ (Oh, yes, they sell flamenco guitars too!)
- You could buy them direct from the factory for about $500 (shipping included). Obviously the factory could make a profit at that price. You could customize your order and choose the woods, the bracing, the rosette, the headstock design, the tuning machines, the finish.
- You could buy them from dealers in Singapore for about $400 (shipping included). Obviously the dealers could make a profit at even that price.
- One professional member of the forum played a sample that his friend bought on eBay. He described the sound as "awful" and that he liked an old inexpensive Takamine factory guitar better. His friend returned the guitar for a refund.
Does this apply to the Andalusian guitars? I don't know. I haven't seen or played one. As much as the San Francisco Bay Area and the San Diego area are hotbeds of flamenco activity, none of these Andalusians have appeared at either market. If they did, they would have to compete in-person against guitars built by luthiers, guitars imported from Spain, and guitars imported from Paracho and China (at competitive prices). Maybe that says something.
EDIT: Towards the end of the topic, heavy arguments broke out between one of the sellers, a luthier who builds real copies of Smallman guitars, a person who appeared to be a recent customer of the seller, and forum members who found old ads of the seller. delcamp.us is a moderated forum so these posts were removed.
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Date Mar. 3 2011 16:10:49
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estebanana
Posts: 9365
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to GuitarVlog)
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quote:
I haven't seen or played one. As much as the San Francisco Bay Area and the San Diego area are hotbeds of flamenco activity, none of these Andalusians have appeared at either market.
It's because people here know better. If they want a Paracho ( guitar making pueblo in Mexico) guitar they just go over to Berkeley Musical Instrument Exchange and buy a one that say it was made in Paracho.
Those dealers have been bringing Paracho guitars into this country for about twenty years and they have always been honest about how they market them. And in fact if you want to know why the level of Paracho flamenco guitars has gotten better over the years it is because the owner of BMIE and other Northern California luthiers who have had guitars built for them in Paracho have prompted all the Paracho builders to up the ante.
Furthermore, there were already a few excellent luthiers in Paracho who were building high level guitars already. And it is sad that you never know who is making Andelusional guitars and how much those guys are getting paid for them. When the scam of selling the Andelusionals for 15,000 bucks was going on, how much do you think the guys that built the were getting?
I suppose the Bay Area crew jumped on this right away and smelled a rat because in the past twenty years we all basically got our first guitars from or had students or friends who got their guitars from the Montalvo line. And those dealers were unashamed to say these are Paracho guitars, see them and play them as they are. We already knew how good a Paracho guitar could be a student guitar or even a guitar a pro could play out if you picked the right one. So to see trumped up prices and total bull crap marketing on the part of Andelusional we figured someone should say something.
If you find a Delusional you like buy it, play, but don't pay more for it than any other Paracho guitar of the same quality. And my personal bias is to buy from Montalvo because they put in lot of time, encouragement and support to the Paracho community of luthiers so that other people who commission runs of guitars from that pueblo will get higher quality goods. So from my perspective if someone comes in and takes advantage of the good quality guitars made in Paracho and then sells out the good name of the hard working Paracho luthiers that is not only dishonest marketing , but disrespectful to guitar making, and in connection disrespectful to flamenco.
Again sorry for the trolling, I know I have a problem and I will be going to councling for internet trollers.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 3 2011 17:15:08
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