RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Full Version)

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Ron.M -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Feb. 26 2011 18:20:36)

quote:

EPIC FAIL


Umm...shouldn't that be EPICAL FAIL? [;)][:D]

Anyway, back to Andelusional Guitars and the sweet timbric colours....ahhh....lovely..

Just consider all the other stuff as a Public Broadcasting info-mercial break..[:D]

cheers,

Ron



Harry -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Feb. 27 2011 5:03:34)

Perhaps part of the issue with these guitars, is that it is simply more difficult to buy a flamenco guitar in Canada. In that sense, this company that is pushed by a man living in Canada after all is providing an option where there may be almost none. In Montreal music stores anyway, the only options in terms of flamenco are yamaha and Raimundo. So I can see an Andalusian guitar being competitive. But I find it hard to believe they could compete with an instrument made by one builder like Anders or Jeff Sigurdson.



sean65 -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Feb. 27 2011 6:32:48)

quote:

So I can see an Andalusian guitar being competitive. But I find it hard to believe they could compete with an instrument made by one builder like Anders or Jeff Sigurdson.


I wouldn't imagine they're trying to. A Mexican factory made box compared to a luthier hand made isn't a fair comparison.

quote:

In Montreal music stores anyway, the only options in terms of flamenco are yamaha and Raimundo


We have a similar problem in the UK, the only shops that have cheaper (under £1000) guitars seem to select all the crap from Alhambra and Esteve. There's very little or no choice under a £1000.

I'd say someone's missing a trick by not producing a decent guitar in this price range.



cRobson12 -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Feb. 27 2011 13:42:32)

Harry no one said that they could compete with an Anders or a Jeff Sigurdson



Harry -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Feb. 27 2011 14:11:18)

Well you didn't Rob but someone who has a 13 part video about selecting a flamenco guitar, in a subtle, cunning and brilliant manner, implies that these guitars are perfect and much better than guitars that cost thousands more etc....

We haven't been on this forum long, but to others on here, these guitars conjure up bad memories. I also thought of looking into these guitars, but after reading through pages and pages on these forums about them, I felt a little manipulated. Perhaps people on the forum here are worried that the same is happening to you, but I notice very few have told you straight out. Like I said though, if you find a guitar you like and that sounds flamenco and you can afford it, then go for it because there are so few opportunities to actually try a guitar before buying one in Canada. (I am guessing you are a fellow Canuck).



GuitarVlog -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Feb. 27 2011 14:59:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry
Like I said though, if you find a guitar you like and that sounds flamenco and you can afford it, then go for it because there are so few opportunities to actually try a guitar before buying one in Canada. (I am guessing you are a fellow Canuck).


I don't know many cities in the US where one can even find a shop like The Berkeley Musical Instrument Exchange. The place is filled to bursting with good guitars from Paracho.



Many flamenco aficionados in our area got started with guitars from here before they moved on to higher-end luthier built instruments. There are so many choices here that you can compare guitars until your ears fall off. More likely, you will become paralyzed in your decision-making because you will find a handful of "different but equally wonderful" guitars that you would not be able to decide between unless you can buy all of them.

The odds are likely that an "Andalusian" guitar would be equivalent in tone, volume and projection to one of George Montalvo's $650 Traditional Flamenco guitars.

http://www.berkeleymusic.com/stnflm.html

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Harry -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Feb. 27 2011 15:23:02)

Wow, that looks like a fun place to be! I bet I could kill a day in there easily!

I think that now that I have actually purchased a Luthier built flamenco guitar and upgraded from the factory guitars, it is going to be more difficult to find a nicer one in the future without traveling, but it's a good excuse to do so!



M.S.A. -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 1 2011 10:51:59)

Stephen, you are totally right on that, these guitars are but a joke.

I have couple of issues with them and why I dislike their marketing and so on. In general, they are being offered and promoted as Barbero, Santos Hernandez, but not as ANDALUSIAN GUITAR so someone could get mislead quite a lot... [apart from their original site, where it is obvious that it's andalusian guitars brand.

thanks god they advertise them with photos mostly, so it helps to recognize andelusional one from a real guitar. rosettes look quite interesting and are well recognizable as well, but I wouldn't like having them on my guitar. they are just too ambitious and picturesque, too large for the soundboard itself. on the photos that rumbaking provided it looks quite nice though, I have to admit, some inlays are interesting, but it still doesn't make it flamenco guitar and absolutely not an ANDALUSIAN one.

I believe these are PARACHO guitars, or maybe CHINESE but certainly not spanish made.
the typical head design of these guitars and that draw some attention signify [to me] that original head designs, the recognizable signs, are cut out eventually. perhaps original maker would have given them some interesting look... so the cut-out means it tries to cover where it comes from. so I wonder if these are not bought for some ridiculous prices and resold for 15000... after being a bit changed on surface. LOL.

the advertisment and their main support they have from alleged comment from PDL... I mean, that's a serious nonsense. Paco simply says Andalusian guitars - the guitars made and originating in Andalucia, the place where gitanos and flamencos live, in south of SPAIN - are hte best. he obviously is being gentleman enough not to say straight I DON'T LIKE THIS PARACHO GUITAR... [no insult to any owner of Castillo or Navarro guitars, I myself have a decent Navarro...] but majority of paracho guitar makers are really falling into category of cheag guitar, comarable well with factory made chinese.

apart from all that - I DON'T LIKE the sound of these guitars at all. I believe it could sound quite a whole lot better if the bracing was more tradicional.

on the other hand, what needs to be said, to compare these guitars with yours or Anders guitars is just a complete misunderstanding... ((:
no comparison whatsoever.
atb



estebanana -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 1 2011 23:32:46)

It's ironical. Totally epically tubularly ironical.



Yojimbo -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 2 2011 0:14:11)

quote:

Stephen, you are totally right on that, these guitars are but a joke.

I have couple of issues with them and why I dislike their marketing and so on. In general, they are being offered and promoted as Barbero, Santos Hernandez, but not as ANDALUSIAN GUITAR so someone could get mislead quite a lot... [apart from their original site, where it is obvious that it's andalusian guitars brand.

thanks god they advertise them with photos mostly, so it helps to recognize andelusional one from a real guitar. rosettes look quite interesting and are well recognizable as well, but I wouldn't like having them on my guitar. they are just too ambitious and picturesque, too large for the soundboard itself. on the photos that rumbaking provided it looks quite nice though, I have to admit, some inlays are interesting, but it still doesn't make it flamenco guitar and absolutely not an ANDALUSIAN one.

I believe these are PARACHO guitars, or maybe CHINESE but certainly not spanish made.
the typical head design of these guitars and that draw some attention signify [to me] that original head designs, the recognizable signs, are cut out eventually. perhaps original maker would have given them some interesting look... so the cut-out means it tries to cover where it comes from. so I wonder if these are not bought for some ridiculous prices and resold for 15000... after being a bit changed on surface. LOL.

the advertisment and their main support they have from alleged comment from PDL... I mean, that's a serious nonsense. Paco simply says Andalusian guitars - the guitars made and originating in Andalucia, the place where gitanos and flamencos live, in south of SPAIN - are hte best. he obviously is being gentleman enough not to say straight I DON'T LIKE THIS PARACHO GUITAR... [no insult to any owner of Castillo or Navarro guitars, I myself have a decent Navarro...] but majority of paracho guitar makers are really falling into category of cheag guitar, comarable well with factory made chinese.

apart from all that - I DON'T LIKE the sound of these guitars at all. I believe it could sound quite a whole lot better if the bracing was more tradicional.

on the other hand, what needs to be said, to compare these guitars with yours or Anders guitars is just a complete misunderstanding... ((:
no comparison whatsoever.
atb


I infer from your remarks that you have never encountered one of these guitars "in person" so to speak, let alone play one. In which case, your post is utter nonsense to me.



M.S.A. -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 2 2011 0:41:07)

Sorry to hurt your feelings, honestly am. It's not meant as an insult though. We do say nonsensical claims very often, it's human thing, anyway. But I am sure about this one, they do sound crap and critical majority of people here will agree with it. Although their look may really sometimes be visually pleasing, as that one from rumbaking's photos. The sound was not convincing to me.
Up to certain extent I agree the guitar sounds different each time it is played by different players depending on their ability to create tone and right technique. But I haven't heard AG sound reasonably well yet.



M.S.A. -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 2 2011 0:45:33)

If you are a lucky owner of one, maybe you can upload some nice and clean recording, that would be quite fair a challenge...



RTC -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 2 2011 0:46:12)

I enjoyed reading the Andalusian post. I really do not have a desire to purchase, play or go out of my way to listen to one. I am very happy with what I have and I am know if I want a new guitar what I am incline to order.

What I do not understand is why a few are so blinded by such a misrepresented marketing campaing behind the andalusian guitars?

How can one do business with a storefront on the internet where the owners or distributors can't even have their contact info for all to see?

Why don't they let the guitars stand on their own and not use names of Luthiers that have earned their space within the Flamenco and guitar world.

I know my questions have been asked before, and no answer has ever been given by the "Andalusian Guitar Makers"

I guess we can all still ponder the question "what came first the chicken or the egg"?



M.S.A. -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 2 2011 1:00:23)

but I like that imaginary situation as "someone" comes to Paco to promote the miraculous guitar from Paracho/China and try to force him into admiting it's a real deal, or something just to be good sounding enough for marketing and advertising. And he finally says on his defence, but diplomatically, that he prefers ANDALUSIAN guitars [more]. And the guy will understand and finds a solution as the brand didn't have a name yet, he'll names it ANDALUSIAN GUITARS just to use the quote from Paco... This is sooo typical mentality, many business people know what I'm talking about here... And so I believe here is the origin of the brand name ANDALUSIAN GUITARS. [:D]



estebanana -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 2 2011 1:06:27)

quote:

If you are a lucky owner of one, maybe you can upload some nice and clean recording, that would be quite fair a challenge...


I suspect he owns about twenty of them.



M.S.A. -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 2 2011 1:09:37)

RTC, there simply is NO answer to those questions at all. If they were answered to satisfaction of the matter, the whole company, woulde've lost their coverstory upon which they sell. Or, do they sell enough guitars at all?



M.S.A. -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 2 2011 1:17:52)

Very possible. [;)]



XXX -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 2 2011 8:18:33)

Why has the topic turned into Andalusian again? It was much more enjoyable with the language topic.
M.S.A., thats a nice avatar. It sums up my condition during examination weeks.



M.S.A. -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 2 2011 11:13:46)

thanx Deniz, I was going to erase the old one, but I couldn't leave it blank so I chose this one.
But yours is a totla bloodshed...



Yojimbo -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 3 2011 1:43:09)

quote:


If you are a lucky owner of one, maybe you can upload some nice and clean recording, that would be quite fair a challenge...


I suspect he owns about twenty of them.


Actually, I own a 1969 Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso - my only guitar.

I must say I'm surprised at the vitriol and inane comments being made by some forum members about a guitar none of them has played or even seen up close.

So you don't like their marketing - bfd.

It seems to me that the few people here who actually have some real life experience with the brand like it.



Harry -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 3 2011 2:23:43)

Since you are relatively new to this forum, as am I, you may not be aware of the ugly history of these guitars, the man who pushes them, and this forum. Much has been written about this. I think these guitars are forever associated with that.

So don't take it personally. I have never played one of these guitars, but based on what went on here which I read all about in my personal research, and the questionable way they are presented, I would never consider giving one the time of day. You can just say that is my loss and that's the end of that.



cRobson12 -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 3 2011 2:30:29)

Have any of you heard about the high school experiment called "The Third Wave" than made into a movie called "The Wave" ? If not I suggest you all look into it and watch the movie.



Yojimbo -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 3 2011 2:36:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry

Since you are relatively new to this forum, as am I, you may not be aware of the ugly history of these guitars, the man who pushes them, and this forum. Much has been written about this. I think these guitars are forever associated with that.

So don't take it personally. I have never played one of these guitars, but based on what went on here which I read all about in my personal research, and the questionable way they are presented, I would never consider giving one the time of day. You can just say that is my loss and that's the end of that.


Yes Harry. I gather that there is a history here that I`ve not been privy to behind all this.

I`ve met the man in real life and he seems very personable and enthusiastic about flamenco and teaching. I`ve also seen some of these guitars; however, I`m very much a newbie to guitar and I`d have trouble telling a great guitar from a piece of junk so I really have no opinion on them.

The discussion here has put me off them though, and that`s unfortunate if they are in fact quite decent.



Harry -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 3 2011 2:43:30)

Well,

don't forget it's easy for me to say I will never try one because I don't have access to one anyway hehe.

But yeah if you make a search you can read some of the things that went down in the past. I considered getting one, back when, and already the fact that they are not made in Spain despite much insinuations to the contrary by the name etc... was a huge turn off. Not to mention the fact that the different models are named after some of the great guitar builders of the last century. Ok, perhaps they used that builder's specifications, but come on...it is meant to be misleading I think, or else maybe it's incredible marketing, I don't know which.

In any case, you are looking for a guitar to learn on right? So you won't have too much wear on your number one guitar? Obviously, I recommend you spend 1000$ max, in which case you know the guitar you will be getting is not going to be the bomb, so really as long as it is comfortable you are set.



Harry -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 3 2011 2:44:54)

Have you done a similar experiment by starting this thread cRob?[:D]



cRobson12 -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 3 2011 2:53:01)

Yeah, but I am the guy who didn't follow everyone else in this experiment [:-]

Or in World War 2, the jewish guy



Guest -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 3 2011 14:05:40)

just caught up on this thread...
we have a player here [australia]who is 'endorsed' by Andalusian guitars.
he swears by them
then again he swears he has paco's secret 'string' combination
oddly his main performances are done on a conde
he offered to sell me a $12, 000 Andalusian guitar for $5000
now i hear there are models for $1000-$2000
he also claims they are made/supervised by a famous 'luthier' who cannot be named due to a contractual or legal bind to another famous guitar 'family' but he 'knows' where they are made...

transparency please? seriously....
sales pitch aside
had i met ruben [ not this guy ] with his guitars, had a thousand dollars in my pocket, and needed a guitar ... i may just walk out with one...probably feel ok till i went online...or i was asked to sell them...
truth is they sound good in that $1000-$2000 price range....whatever that means..
and you can pretend to your friends it's made in spain and paco uses them...no-one will never know the truth..[optional topic]...

true the 'history' and 'marketing' of these guitars is dodgy and lacks integrity...particularly the endorsee here in australia...
there's such an element of being 'conned'...

but if the tones resonate with you go for it...
$1000 is little money in the world of guitars..someone will always buy it from you...
if it functions as workhorse sounds a fair deal...


theres also Alvin Tofflers 'Third Wave'
it explores cloning and 'one size fits all' industrialization among other things....
think the jones experiment was also turned into a musical... the jewish kid survived and lived to play another day ...not the case in world war 2.



Morante -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 3 2011 15:07:27)

quote:

It seems to me that the few people here who actually have some real life experience with the brand like it.


Estás equivocado: he examinado y tocado la misma guitarra que tocó Paco en el famoso video. Fue mal hecho, mal ajustado y sonaba regular. Aconsajé al dueno que debería venderla, lo más pronto posible

Tal vez, todas las demás son de maravilla[:D]



GuitarVlog -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 3 2011 16:10:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante
Fue mal hecho, mal ajustado y sonaba regular.


That disappointing, eh? [:D]


There was a similar situation over at delcamp.us not too long ago. There were all these brands of Smallman classical guitar copies that were being offered under various names: New Masters, Thomas Whitechapel, Goyette Guitars, and other names.

Some of these brands were fraudulently presented as having been made by Australian luthiers. Some were presented as being made in China by a team of luthiers. All were being presented as concert grade instruments and all were being offered for $1500 to $2000. One of the sellers claimed professional credentials. Some people obviously bought them online, on eBay and on CraigsList.

But then folks on delcamp.us did their own research and it can be followed in this thread:

http://www.delcamp.us/viewtopic.php?t=39935

The topic contains posts with glowing reviews from two owners ... posted just before they sold their guitars on eBay. These owners never returned to the forum after their guitars sold.

In a nutshell:
  • These guitars came from the SinoMusik (aka Aersi) factory in China. http://www.sinomusik.com/ (Oh, yes, they sell flamenco guitars too!)
  • You could buy them direct from the factory for about $500 (shipping included). Obviously the factory could make a profit at that price. You could customize your order and choose the woods, the bracing, the rosette, the headstock design, the tuning machines, the finish.
  • You could buy them from dealers in Singapore for about $400 (shipping included). Obviously the dealers could make a profit at even that price.
  • One professional member of the forum played a sample that his friend bought on eBay. He described the sound as "awful" and that he liked an old inexpensive Takamine factory guitar better. His friend returned the guitar for a refund.


Does this apply to the Andalusian guitars? I don't know. I haven't seen or played one. As much as the San Francisco Bay Area and the San Diego area are hotbeds of flamenco activity, none of these Andalusians have appeared at either market. If they did, they would have to compete in-person against guitars built by luthiers, guitars imported from Spain, and guitars imported from Paracho and China (at competitive prices). Maybe that says something.

EDIT: Towards the end of the topic, heavy arguments broke out between one of the sellers, a luthier who builds real copies of Smallman guitars, a person who appeared to be a recent customer of the seller, and forum members who found old ads of the seller. delcamp.us is a moderated forum so these posts were removed.



estebanana -> RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling) (Mar. 3 2011 17:15:08)

quote:

I haven't seen or played one. As much as the San Francisco Bay Area and the San Diego area are hotbeds of flamenco activity, none of these Andalusians have appeared at either market.


It's because people here know better. If they want a Paracho ( guitar making pueblo in Mexico) guitar they just go over to Berkeley Musical Instrument Exchange and buy a one that say it was made in Paracho.

Those dealers have been bringing Paracho guitars into this country for about twenty years and they have always been honest about how they market them. And in fact if you want to know why the level of Paracho flamenco guitars has gotten better over the years it is because the owner of BMIE and other Northern California luthiers who have had guitars built for them in Paracho have prompted all the Paracho builders to up the ante.

Furthermore, there were already a few excellent luthiers in Paracho who were building high level guitars already. And it is sad that you never know who is making Andelusional guitars and how much those guys are getting paid for them. When the scam of selling the Andelusionals for 15,000 bucks was going on, how much do you think the guys that built the were getting?

I suppose the Bay Area crew jumped on this right away and smelled a rat because in the past twenty years we all basically got our first guitars from or had students or friends who got their guitars from the Montalvo line. And those dealers were unashamed to say these are Paracho guitars, see them and play them as they are. We already knew how good a Paracho guitar could be a student guitar or even a guitar a pro could play out if you picked the right one. So to see trumped up prices and total bull crap marketing on the part of Andelusional we figured someone should say something.

If you find a Delusional you like buy it, play, but don't pay more for it than any other Paracho guitar of the same quality. And my personal bias is to buy from Montalvo because they put in lot of time, encouragement and support to the Paracho community of luthiers so that other people who commission runs of guitars from that pueblo will get higher quality goods. So from my perspective if someone comes in and takes advantage of the good quality guitars made in Paracho and then sells out the good name of the hard working Paracho luthiers that is not only dishonest marketing , but disrespectful to guitar making, and in connection disrespectful to flamenco.


Again sorry for the trolling, I know I have a problem and I will be going to councling for internet trollers.



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