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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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[Poll]
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Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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| Marking a steady beat in 2's (2,4,6 etc)? |
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| "Al Golpe" (1,2 - 4,,5 - 7,8 - 10,11)? |
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| Marking the accented beats (3,6,8,10,12 or 7,8)? |
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| A combination of the above |
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Total Votes : 66
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(last vote on : Nov. 6 2019 16:01:41)
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Ricardo
Posts: 14873
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
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quote:
I think all teachers, especially outside Spain, present a 12-count to beginners because it's expedient and fairly easy to digest. Telling beginners what compás is really about would scare them away the first day.
I teach, even outside spain, even in the dreaded "america", and I don't present 12 count to beginners. And when asked about it I determine at that time the level of the student, and whether discussing it will help or hurt. Usually rhythm is very quickly picked up just by demonstrating and the student copies me. I can tell just by watching if the student feels it, and if I am not sure, I put on the metronome. Problems are nipped in the bud with the metronome much quicker than counting beats and such.
There were so many separate posts by Estela, I don't know what to quote. I agree about the foot tapping thing, it is good to work on. I disagree about cante and rhythm, singing has to be rhythmic too, just like the guitar and dance. I think as cute as the porn/screwing analogy is to using a click track or metronome, I don't think it is a fair one in regards to making rhythm. Different folks jive differently with other folks, but in general, people with more razor sharp tempo are gonna gravitate towards others like themselves when working together. Metronome or not is irrelavant to folks on that level. Keeping steady time is a feeling. Adjusting to fit someone else sometimes does not feel as good as keeping a groove steady. Of course live people is different than a click, but the click itself does not make music stale. In other words, the folks who don't mind a click, are the ones having to "adjust" when playing with those who can't do it comfortably. To some folks, the fine adjustments are what holds the groove and keeps it alive. To others, those fine adjustments are killing the groove.
My analogy is more like if I was a PORN STAR, would I rather be getting busy with some old dumpy hags, or a fresh batch of young hot porn queens?
I will have to dig into my old recordings and put the metronome against them, but I know off hand who sounds more even to me than others. In general, I prefer the jerez players, very steady tempo. Actually, that steadiness is part of the reason I like that style. For guitar solo, Sabicas is pretty up and down, but a guy like Esteban de Sanlucar likes to keep it steady. I have not checked them litterally, but just giving my perceptions. In my experience working with musicians of many styles, players who are up and down a lot, can't play with a click and make the statements like you make about how the click takes life out of the music and rhythm. And then the folks who are really tight players, love to play with drum machines and loops, click track is no problem and does not interfere with the expression of their rhythm or the feeling of the music. In a lot of styles of music, the steady "machine like" groove is the WHOLE POINT of the feeling of the music. But I will stop with this now, been down this road too many times.
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 13 2006 16:42:13
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Metronome or not is irrelavant to folks on that level. Keeping steady time is a feeling. Adjusting to fit someone else sometimes does not feel as good as keeping a groove steady. Of course live people is different than a click, but the click itself does not make music stale. In other words, the folks who don't mind a click, are the ones having to "adjust" when playing with those who can't do it comfortably.
That doesn't correspond to anything I've experienced. Get out those old records, you'll discover "steady" is not the absolute value you thought it was.
"In my experience working with musicians
of many styles, players who are up and
down a lot, can't play with a click and make
the statements like you make about how
the click takes life out of the music and rhythm."
This is like the dissonance issue I'm currently writing about. Jerez singers sing sharp, I've know it for years, but no one here will accept it. Yet there is no such thing as an "absolute" tone, and different cultures "lean" the notes higher or lower for a specific sound. Likewise, "steady" is purely subjective. You can spot claqueta-made records in an instant, it's like those supermarket musak versions of Entre dos Aguas.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 13 2006 17:23:53
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
i dont think "now i got to move the right leg then the left" in order to be able to walk.
Depends on how drunk you are of course.. 
Seriously though, forget all this left brain/right brain medical jargon-crap..
If your brain initiates a command to move a limb, you can access that command consciously...no sweat.
You can "feel" a pulse internally without having to tap or clap.
Tapping or moving around in your chair or chattering teeth etc, while playing may feel "right" for some folk and also give valuable signals to others when playing in a group situation, but that's not the point I was actually making.
I know people who can't tap or clap in time to a 4/4 pop record...
What do you tell them...just let your foot do it's own thing?
No...because their brain doesn't know when to send the signal to the foot.
I tap while playing.
It's just something I do because it's fun and feels good to do....
But inside my head I have lots of other background rhythms going on.
Tapping one rhythm with the foot and playing another (poly)rhythm on the guitar is just multitasking, which all musicians are aware of..left hand, right hand, singing etc...
However I would say that Ricardo is right in verifying that his student does truly understand the lesson and not just playing "parrot fashion", by confirming it by making him/her tap and play.
cheers
Ron
(Interestingly enough, I'm just listening to a radio programme on "amusia" or "tone deafness"....all the researchers are talking about the brain, not the ear..)
_____________________________
A good guitar might be a good guitar
But it takes a woman to break your heart
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 13 2006 19:59:01
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Ricardo
Posts: 14873
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
But it shouldnt get to the point that you get handicapped when there is no metronome or computer around.
I have yet to meet someone like that, that they are tight and natural with a metronome, but can't play with a good rhythm backing, or suddenly go all over the place when the click is turned off. In general I see the opposite all the time.
quote:
That wasn't an opinion, but an observation. No one sings on the beats except in those Cádiz things..."con el caray caray caray", "tiriti tran" etc. Imagine if people actually sang like that all the time! Singing has to be in compás, but that means something very different from what it means for a dancer or guitarist.
This is why it's meaningless to talk about what beat the singer begins or ends on.
Oops, sorry. Then I guess your observation is 100% wrong. Singing can be on or off the beat, either way, it is a rhythm. In flamenco, even the melismas on "Ayyyyyyy!" have rhythm. Listen to Paquera, that is not random, it is very controlled. Even the libre cantes have rhythmic flow. It is the same for the dancers movements, and the guitarists playing. Learning to control rhythm is a big part of singing, dancing, playing guitar in flamenco. Perhaps singers are not intellectually aware of rhythm the way a dancer is, but it is obvious when when one singer has good rhythm, and another does not know what is going on.
quote:
That doesn't correspond to anything I've experienced. Get out those old records, you'll discover "steady" is not the absolute value you thought it was.
Well, sorry about it. For me anyway, I notice when something is played more controlled and even than something else. But maybe it is just me, I don't know.
quote:
This is like the dissonance issue I'm currently writing about. Jerez singers sing sharp, I've know it for years, but no one here will accept it. Yet there is no such thing as an "absolute" tone, and different cultures "lean" the notes higher or lower for a specific sound.
Well before you go crazy with that break through idea, you may want to read up on modal music and tuning systems first. Lot of info about how the equal tempered tuning interferes with modal playing/singing as been thouroughly discussed. There is a book by Danilou I can think of off hand.
But just to be clear, do you think Paquera sings "sharp", or right on pitch most of the time?
Ricardo
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 13 2006 20:01:08
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