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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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[Poll]
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Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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| Marking a steady beat in 2's (2,4,6 etc)? |
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| "Al Golpe" (1,2 - 4,,5 - 7,8 - 10,11)? |
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| Marking the accented beats (3,6,8,10,12 or 7,8)? |
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| A combination of the above |
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Total Votes : 66
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(last vote on : Nov. 6 2019 16:01:41)
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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 RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
OK question from a very confused beginner to Bulerias - should I, or should I not, count it as follows: 12, 3, 6, 8, 10
Nealf,
I'm no expert, but try out what I said in my last post on this.
Being able to cope with 2's and 3's at the same time is one of the major difficulties.
If you can't keep time with a recording of basic Bulerias cante with guitar and palmas, then you aren't gonna do much better on the guitar, unless you sit and work out every single falseta.
Also the method you've shown above is what Richard calls "a full Gringo compás", which is in fact two half compases so you'll get thrown as soon as the singer adds a half compás.
As Estela says, you're not going to pick this up in a week or two.
It doesn't just click, but if you keep at it then you'll find you can keep time for longer and longer periods.
cheers
Ron
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Date Dec. 23 2004 8:06:51
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
OK question from a very confused beginner to Bulerias - should I, or should I not, count it as follows: 12, 3, 6, 8, 10
Nealf, one thing we can all agree on is that bulerías rolls happily along regardless of how or whether anyone counts it. So what we're really talking about is what internal feeling or mindset best reflects the nature of this very complex but devilishly simple compás.
For teacher and student, the 12-count is a quick fix that gives a student the appearance of managing compás..."everyone's a winner" like they say. But the student will eventually and inevitably have to come to terms with the reality of bulerías if he or she is going to interact successfully with others, whether professionally or in informal contexts.
Most people have a very hard time shedding the 12-count or relegating it to its proper level. For this reason my feeling is it's more practical to come to grips with the multiple layers of bulerías from the first day, even though it might take months longer to get it going. In practical terms, you might pat twos with your feet (2-4-6-8-10-12) while playing standard twelves. Just like "rub your head and pat your tummy", at some point the two paths lock together instead of being in conflict.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 23 2004 9:17:00
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nealf
OK question from a very confused beginner to Bulerias - should I, or should I not, count it as follows: 12, 3, 6, 8, 10
Yes, you should listen to recordings and try to count as you wrote above. But, you should also try to count these other ways: 12,3,7,8,10 -and the easiest way while playing: 12,2,4,6,8,10 - six simple beats. You need to feel all these. They all happen at one time or another. Also listen to the patterns of the palmas and try to figure out how they fit in the compas. Listen to recordings and try to figure out the basic chord progressions people use to accompany cante. Learn a few simple falsetas and try to play them in compas. Play compas along with recordings while damping the strings-that way you can focus on only compas and accents without thinking about chords and notes. Match the rasquedo patterns with your playing. Practice doing palmas along with the recordings. Finally, get in a dance class as a second guitarist and then as the main guitarist. This is really the only way to learn to accompany dance. All the other stuff without this last step won't get you there. Forget solo records. Listen to stuff with singing, and if you can, find records with dancing too. That's my 2 cents.
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Date Dec. 23 2004 16:42:18
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Mark2)
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Good post Mark!
You know, when I first saw Paco Peña at Strathclyde University when he was about 26 , maybe 28 years old.
I was totally amazed (as everyone was) by the power of the Bulerías he played.
Now, we're going back to a time when there was zero information about Flamenco except for a few sleeve notes on the back of a Flamenco LP.
One thing I did notice though, was this way that he did toe and heel, toe and heel, which didn't seem to correspond to what he was playing.
I now realize he was doing 2's, but in a way that would always keep him in compás.
Toe was on the 12 beat (in the Gringo compás LOL!)
Heel was on 2
Toe again on 4
And heel on 6
Then toe on 8
Heel on 10
Then toe on 12
Now how many falsetas begin on 4 or 8?
So the guy knew exactly where he was!
12 has to start on a "toe" beat.
With the knowledge of how the Bulerías form took, then twice times three beats was enough.
Think about it.
cheers
Ron
PS A friend brought around a bottle of 10 years Glenmorangie so I'm a bit under the influence at the moment.
Will review it in the morning, but I think that timing's OK.
Actually, all I can hear in my head at the mo' is "Flower of Scotland" LOL!
(Strictly 4/4)
cheers
Ron
(PS Lang mae yer respective lums reek!)
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Date Dec. 23 2004 20:33:30
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Ricardo
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
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Just to add to some stuff above, the important thing is no matter how you count or accent, if you are using 12 numbers, understand the symmetry of the phrase. 12,1,2,3,4,5 feels the same as 6,7,8,9,10,11. These two entities don't need to fit together, you can leave one out or repeat the feel of the other one. Saying 12,2,4, is really the same feeling as 6,8,10, regardless if it repeats or not. If it DOES, it seems silly to count "6,7,8,9,10,11-6,7,8,9,10,11", even though that is the feeling. The half compas is where the 12s become a "straight jacket" as Estela says. You don't want to "think" about anything when you are playing.
I teach the student how to play the rhythm and to tap their foot, long before I tell them the counts the silly dancers like to use for choreography. Once they can actually play something, then the need for "where the counts line up in the music" makes sense and becomes useful. If you are just learning, forget "counting". Learn a strumming pattern first or how to do palmas to the music. Learn to tap your foot and play w/ a metronome.
When you are ready for a dance class, the teacher may be counting so much you will have no choice but to "ingrain" the counts against what you are playing. "Siete Ocho Nueve Diez Y!" Man you will be sick of it after a while!
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 23 2004 21:23:54
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Guest
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
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Nealf
Just a few things. Listen and listen and listen to bulerias. Try to learn how to do palmas, then play a little with CD's, and dont use to much time on discussions like this one. They end up being some kind of Platon/Socrates discussion, and just twist your brain.
This with saying that you only learn by accompanying, might be kind of correct, but also absurd. It sounds like you can just walk out the door an accompany some singer or dancer and thats it. some people might have to move 1000 km. to find one, and even though I live in Andalusia, I cannot do it. We live in the year 2005 and this includes the flamenco scene. We play soloist flamenco because we live soloist lifes, and the flamenco will change with that, like everything else. You may like it or not, but its a fact, because it already happened.
And last. When you guys/girls conclude that everything in 3/4 is walz, I have to put up a big protest. 3/4 is just a way of counting, and you can count 3/4 in many ways, including walz. Its like saying that everything in a 12 compas is Buleria, or that everything in 4/4 is hardcore thrash metal.
Saludos y feliz compás de bulería
Anders
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Date Dec. 24 2004 8:18:37
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Carlos Bedoya
Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 15 2005
From: San Juan, Puerto Rico
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria: You tap your foot three times, corresponding to 12, 2, 4. Then you do it again, corresponding to 6, 8, 10.
I also see it this way; particularly for bulerias de jerez. 12, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10
Accenting 12 and 6. This helps you know where you are in the 12 count cycle at all times.
An exercise would be to say:
do un dos tres cuatro cinco seis siete ocho nueve diez un
as you do a one strong foot and two claps:
12-2-4- / 6-8-10-
F-c-c- / F-c-c-
So you’re thinking in 6-6. This helps you adapt to a cantaor.
A practice loop could be.
12-2-4- / 6-8-10-
F-c–c-/ F-c-c-
12-2-4- / 678910-
F-c-c- / FcccC-
That second part of the compas (678910) is where you usually do remates. But if for some reason you have to do it some where else (and it happens) feeling the groove in 6's helps.
Having said this, I find myself using all the poll methods depending at what’s happening at the moment and compas accents (12, 3, 6, 8, 10) are generally very important. Its not so much how you are thinking about all this as much as how you are feeling these accents and the 12-2-4 / 6-8-10- pulse that runs through the music.
I hope this helps someone, especially if they are new to flamenco.
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Date Feb. 25 2005 17:19:39
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. 
, playing along with Diego Amaya and Capullo's endless bulerías jam is a great way of jumping into compás head first. The old recording "Canta Jerez" has another classic bulería with a variety of singers which is great to play along with. And if you really want to have fun, accompany Miguel Poveda's, Diego Carrasco's or Macanita's lengthy recordings of bulerías without guitar...the compás is iron-clad and you're free to play the chords you think sound best...with no one listening. 
I would just like to say, I still agree with myself!