RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping.

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Bulerías basic timekeeping.

Marking a steady beat in 2's (2,4,6 etc)?

28% (19)

"Al Golpe" (1,2 - 4,,5 - 7,8 - 10,11)?

9% (6)

Marking the accented beats (3,6,8,10,12 or 7,8)?

30% (20)

A combination of the above

31% (21)

Total Votes : 66

(last vote on : Nov. 6 2019 16:01:41)

Message

sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 12:38:29)
quote: Keeping compás and making music to a claqueta are as different as screwing and watching a porn movie - it seems related in theory, but in practice, the difference is dramatic [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 12:51:00)
quote: Still it is a cool idea I think, that the beat is not heard but "felt". I neglected to mention the most important thing: there was a minimum of footwork and no desplantes, it was nearly all pellizco and upper-body. In fact, since the singers were singing non-standard bulerías, it took a few minutes before you realized it was intended to be bulerías (unless you peeked at the program first). It might just as easily have been tonás. It was an interesting experiment, but, I believe, doomed to be just a novelty. The dancer is theoretically dancing to the cante, but in this case the singers had to sing to the dancer.

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 12:59:27)
quote: quote: And it's not a question of "precision", in fact all a claqueta does is make flamenco sound as stale as a disco mix. Well, that's your opinion. I disagree totally. Perhaps multitracking can have that problem, but the click itself is not the problem. It's an opinion shared by some very good singers and guitarists who refuse to relinquish the natural dynamic of flamenco, which is one of the essential elements that makes it different from pop music. First came music, then came musicology. The latter cannot always tame the former, and flamenco revels in that limbo between the two.

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 13:09:44)
I can't find the message now, but I think it may have been sonikete who pointed out that the beat of the foot is ordered by the brain, so the beat has been internalized well before the foot is engaged, which makes the whole operation seem unnecessary. This isn't really true. We all know what it's like to learn a piece note by note, practice it, memorize it, play it dozens of times....until a sort of turning-point is reached when the notes emanate from muscle memory and the brain's participation dwindles to near zero. Often at this point the technical mastery is at its highest, but emotional involvement begins to suffer and the piece slowly degenerates. Foot-tapping is committed to muscle memory almost immediately - we do not will each beat - and the intellectual involvement is nil. That's what I meant by "automatic pilot".

el ted -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 13:16:59)
quote: first came music, then came musicology Very true!

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 13 2006 13:55:31)
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zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 14:02:00)
I think all teachers, especially outside Spain, present a 12-count to beginners because it's expedient and fairly easy to digest. Telling beginners what compás is really about would scare them away the first day.

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 13 2006 14:05:08)
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Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 13 2006 14:11:25)
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duende -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 14:28:38)
Im a guitar teacher but i never taught flamenco.

sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 15:16:44)
quote: I can't find the message now, but I think it may have been sonikete who pointed out that the beat of the foot is ordered by the brain, so the beat has been internalized well before the foot is engaged, which makes the whole operation seem unnecessary. I meant that you might not use the foot-tapping when playing with solid palmas but that its still essential to be able to tap in order to become free in the rhythm. The foot should do its own thing while the brain is focusing on the music. I only use counting when i have to communicate at rehearsals for example or to analyse a falseta i have trouble with. I teach, and i tell them to first choose to tap in 3´s or 2´s and then count to 12 on top of that, mark the 12, 3 and 10 so they know what functions these beats have. And then 6´s. After that basic song progressions and then move on from there. Its kind of useless to teach tomatito falsetas to someone who have a hard time keeping a straight beat with the foot.

Ron.M -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 15:49:13)
quote: The foot should do its own thing Not possible unless connected to a brain...(except in horror movies!) [:D] cheers Ron

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 13 2006 15:56:21)
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sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 15:57:07)
quote: Not possible unless connected to a brain There are different parts of the brain, i dont think "now i got to move the right leg then the left" in order to be able to walk. Its automatic, like the foot when playing.

Ricardo -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 16:42:13)
quote: I think all teachers, especially outside Spain, present a 12-count to beginners because it's expedient and fairly easy to digest. Telling beginners what compás is really about would scare them away the first day. I teach, even outside spain, even in the dreaded "america", and I don't present 12 count to beginners. And when asked about it I determine at that time the level of the student, and whether discussing it will help or hurt. Usually rhythm is very quickly picked up just by demonstrating and the student copies me. I can tell just by watching if the student feels it, and if I am not sure, I put on the metronome. Problems are nipped in the bud with the metronome much quicker than counting beats and such. There were so many separate posts by Estela, I don't know what to quote. I agree about the foot tapping thing, it is good to work on. I disagree about cante and rhythm, singing has to be rhythmic too, just like the guitar and dance. I think as cute as the porn/screwing analogy is to using a click track or metronome, I don't think it is a fair one in regards to making rhythm. Different folks jive differently with other folks, but in general, people with more razor sharp tempo are gonna gravitate towards others like themselves when working together. Metronome or not is irrelavant to folks on that level. Keeping steady time is a feeling. Adjusting to fit someone else sometimes does not feel as good as keeping a groove steady. Of course live people is different than a click, but the click itself does not make music stale. In other words, the folks who don't mind a click, are the ones having to "adjust" when playing with those who can't do it comfortably. To some folks, the fine adjustments are what holds the groove and keeps it alive. To others, those fine adjustments are killing the groove. My analogy is more like if I was a PORN STAR, would I rather be getting busy with some old dumpy hags, or a fresh batch of young hot porn queens? I will have to dig into my old recordings and put the metronome against them, but I know off hand who sounds more even to me than others. In general, I prefer the jerez players, very steady tempo. Actually, that steadiness is part of the reason I like that style. For guitar solo, Sabicas is pretty up and down, but a guy like Esteban de Sanlucar likes to keep it steady. I have not checked them litterally, but just giving my perceptions. In my experience working with musicians of many styles, players who are up and down a lot, can't play with a click and make the statements like you make about how the click takes life out of the music and rhythm. And then the folks who are really tight players, love to play with drum machines and loops, click track is no problem and does not interfere with the expression of their rhythm or the feeling of the music. In a lot of styles of music, the steady "machine like" groove is the WHOLE POINT of the feeling of the music. But I will stop with this now, been down this road too many times. Ricardo

sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 17:03:44)
I dont see any problem in the metronome or a loop either and have nothing against it. And when you have a lot of people doing palmas it sometimes gets as straight as a loop or a metronome anyway. But it shouldnt get to the point that you get handicapped when there is no metronome or computer around. I tap with a loop or click as well and then i can hear if im slowing down or speeding in difficult phrases so im aware of that when im playing alone without it.

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 17:11:46)
quote: I disagree about cante and rhythm, singing has to be rhythmic too, That wasn't an opinion, but an observation. No one sings on the beats except in those Cádiz things..."con el caray caray caray", "tiriti tran" etc. Imagine if people actually sang like that all the time! Singing has to be in compás, but that means something very different from what it means for a dancer or guitarist. This is why it's meaningless to talk about what beat the singer begins or ends on. Traditional singers have never heard about twelves, nor do they comtemplate compás as units or modules, but rather an infinite line of accents. Once you hear it, you won't be able to think of cante any other way.

sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 17:19:44)
But its interesting when you have the mathematics of modern choreography integrating with traditional cante. Singing to a choreography means that a singer have to know what the dancer wants and when he/she is supposed to enter and then these worlds have to find a common language.

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 17:23:53)
quote: Metronome or not is irrelavant to folks on that level. Keeping steady time is a feeling. Adjusting to fit someone else sometimes does not feel as good as keeping a groove steady. Of course live people is different than a click, but the click itself does not make music stale. In other words, the folks who don't mind a click, are the ones having to "adjust" when playing with those who can't do it comfortably. That doesn't correspond to anything I've experienced. Get out those old records, you'll discover "steady" is not the absolute value you thought it was. "In my experience working with musicians of many styles, players who are up and down a lot, can't play with a click and make the statements like you make about how the click takes life out of the music and rhythm." This is like the dissonance issue I'm currently writing about. Jerez singers sing sharp, I've know it for years, but no one here will accept it. Yet there is no such thing as an "absolute" tone, and different cultures "lean" the notes higher or lower for a specific sound. Likewise, "steady" is purely subjective. You can spot claqueta-made records in an instant, it's like those supermarket musak versions of Entre dos Aguas.

sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 17:26:33)
quote: This is like the dissonance issue I'm currently writing about. Jerez singers sing sharp, I've know it for years, but no one here will accept it. Yeah, that sounds like a bit of an argument we had here about "microtiming" a while back so thats another way you can make enemies if youre interested.[:D]

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 17:30:23)
quote: There are different parts of the brain, i dont think "now i got to move the right leg then the left" in order to be able to walk. Its automatic, like the foot when playing. "Muscle memory" is real. It's no doubt linked to the brain, but at a very low level. I once had to do a show after a big party with somewhat altered consciousness (stoned). I may not have known what my name was when I went on stage, or even why I was on stage...but somehow my mouth sang the right stuff and my body danced the right steps in the fin de fiesta...it was like being pulled around by puppet strings. (That's off the record, huh?) [8D]

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 17:35:11)
quote: when you have a lot of people doing palmas it sometimes gets as straight as a loop or a metronome anyway. It's only an illusion. Here in Jerez the fiestas are to unrelentless jackhammer rhythm. I can only urge everyone to pull out some old record they consider to have a "steady" rhythm and see for themselves by comparing with a metronome...but don't throw the metronome in the garbage afterwards, he does the best he can...

sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 17:37:56)
Yeah, muscle memory, its like walking. I also have this theory about stoned memory, certain things you learned when you were high is only available if you get stoned again. When youre sober they are gone from the consiouness..

sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 17:43:10)
quote: It's only an illusion. I dont know, you might be right, i never compared it and playing at home and with other people is a lot different so it might be a lot less metrononic than i thought. I dont really analyze stuff if it sounds alright and the important thing is to be inside the groove everyone else you are playing with have ...

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 19:07:52)
Deliberate dissonance is a reality, I've researched it for some time now. It's time the Jerez dissonance be recognized for what it is, a vocal technique, the mysterious "eco" without which cante often sounds cold and unexpressive. Young singers reject all talk of dissonance, and so we've got a crop of sweet, flawless voices these days. I would never avoid publishing my observations in order to make people happy.

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 19:15:24)
quote: Singing to a choreography means that a singer have to know what the dancer wants and when he/she is supposed to enter and then these worlds have to find a common language. There already was a common language that everyone spoke fluently, and singers went to the last day of rehearsal just to see what cantes were required. Now, they give you a tape the first day of what you need to learn, and singers have to be at all the rehearsals. What it comes down to is, is it better to hear Paco Jarana play a different chord for each eyebrow movement of his wife Yerbabuena while the singer gestures, or just see Eva cut loose on her own. For me, the choice is clear, even though the other approach has a certain beauty and merit of its own.

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 19:19:23)
quote: I dont really analyze stuff if it sounds alright and the important thing is to be inside the groove everyone else you are playing with have ... Of course! That's why the claqueta is the worst thing to happen to flamenco recordings since Cagancho squeaked out his cantes making marks on a wax cylilnder.

Ron.M -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 19:59:01)
quote: i dont think "now i got to move the right leg then the left" in order to be able to walk. Depends on how drunk you are of course..[:D] Seriously though, forget all this left brain/right brain medical jargon-crap.. If your brain initiates a command to move a limb, you can access that command consciously...no sweat. You can "feel" a pulse internally without having to tap or clap. Tapping or moving around in your chair or chattering teeth etc, while playing may feel "right" for some folk and also give valuable signals to others when playing in a group situation, but that's not the point I was actually making. I know people who can't tap or clap in time to a 4/4 pop record... What do you tell them...just let your foot do it's own thing? No...because their brain doesn't know when to send the signal to the foot. I tap while playing. It's just something I do because it's fun and feels good to do.... But inside my head I have lots of other background rhythms going on. Tapping one rhythm with the foot and playing another (poly)rhythm on the guitar is just multitasking, which all musicians are aware of..left hand, right hand, singing etc... However I would say that Ricardo is right in verifying that his student does truly understand the lesson and not just playing "parrot fashion", by confirming it by making him/her tap and play. cheers Ron (Interestingly enough, I'm just listening to a radio programme on "amusia" or "tone deafness"....all the researchers are talking about the brain, not the ear..)

Ricardo -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 20:01:08)
quote: But it shouldnt get to the point that you get handicapped when there is no metronome or computer around. I have yet to meet someone like that, that they are tight and natural with a metronome, but can't play with a good rhythm backing, or suddenly go all over the place when the click is turned off. In general I see the opposite all the time. quote: That wasn't an opinion, but an observation. No one sings on the beats except in those Cádiz things..."con el caray caray caray", "tiriti tran" etc. Imagine if people actually sang like that all the time! Singing has to be in compás, but that means something very different from what it means for a dancer or guitarist. This is why it's meaningless to talk about what beat the singer begins or ends on. Oops, sorry. Then I guess your observation is 100% wrong. Singing can be on or off the beat, either way, it is a rhythm. In flamenco, even the melismas on "Ayyyyyyy!" have rhythm. Listen to Paquera, that is not random, it is very controlled. Even the libre cantes have rhythmic flow. It is the same for the dancers movements, and the guitarists playing. Learning to control rhythm is a big part of singing, dancing, playing guitar in flamenco. Perhaps singers are not intellectually aware of rhythm the way a dancer is, but it is obvious when when one singer has good rhythm, and another does not know what is going on. quote: That doesn't correspond to anything I've experienced. Get out those old records, you'll discover "steady" is not the absolute value you thought it was. Well, sorry about it. For me anyway, I notice when something is played more controlled and even than something else. But maybe it is just me, I don't know. quote: This is like the dissonance issue I'm currently writing about. Jerez singers sing sharp, I've know it for years, but no one here will accept it. Yet there is no such thing as an "absolute" tone, and different cultures "lean" the notes higher or lower for a specific sound. Well before you go crazy with that break through idea, you may want to read up on modal music and tuning systems first. Lot of info about how the equal tempered tuning interferes with modal playing/singing as been thouroughly discussed. There is a book by Danilou I can think of off hand. But just to be clear, do you think Paquera sings "sharp", or right on pitch most of the time? Ricardo

sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 13 2006 20:07:54)
quote: What it comes down to is, is it better to hear Paco Jarana play a different chord for each eyebrow movement of his wife Yerbabuena while the singer gestures, or just see Eva cut loose on her own. For me, the choice is clear, even though the other approach has a certain beauty and merit of its own. What got me interested in flamenco in the first place wasnt fancy circus stunts but the stuff that makes the hair stand up in the neck and that doesnt necessarily have to be very complicated. quote: Depends on how drunk you are of course.. Another question that might come up in certain stages of intoxication is "am i walking or im i just thinking that im walking" [:D] quote: I know people who can't tap or clap in time to a 4/4 pop record... What do you tell them...just let your foot do it's own thing? That they maybe should find another hobby.. quote: I have yet to meet someone like that, that they are tight and natural with a metronome, but can't play with a good rhythm backing, or suddenly go all over the place when the click is turned off. In general I see the opposite all the time. I mean that some people cant play a complicated falseta without a crutch.

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