zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 17 2006 1:21:09)
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Sorry for the delay, I’m in Cádiz for a few days, not much free time. I’ve tried to keep this orderly, hope it’s not too confusing. quote:
That was about the colatilla tiritran thing. And NO I don't. That is why I brought it up. I spoke about the Cádiz custom of using the voice as a percussive instrument. It was you asked if words could change the compás. The answer is no. quote:
Cante works over what Spanish musicians call a “colchón” (I don’t know what that is in English, perhaps ‘drone’?), quote:
Calchon is like a mattress for a bed. :-)...right, colchón...:-)... And it’s the musical term for what I’ve since confirmed in English is a ‘drone’, so we’ve all learned something. quote:
The cante would "lie"on top. But in music that Calchon could be like rasgueados on the guitar. It supports underneath very clear. A colchón is like what Arcángel does when he sings tonás accompanied by a single continuous note which resembles the sound of a cellist drawing his bow slowly across one string over a period of several minutes. Strummed chords can be a colchón as well, provided no rhythmic structure is imposed. quote:
But rhythm in flamenco is more than just strumming and marking accents. The colchón, by definition, imposes neither accents nor rhythm, it’s a harmonic backdrop. In basic cante (obviously other palos are different), the guitarist works percussively with rhythm and compás, harmonically with a drone. If you were to sing siguiriyas, you would immediately see how the singer is free to whip up melodies, and they will always sound “right” provided the guitarist isn’t trying to second-guess the singer. If there’s going to be a resolution in Do or Sol as some siguiriyas de cambio have, there is no choice but to wait for the singer to actually express the intervals that require those chords. To detect the precise moment, you have to cling to the singer’s every breath and of course, have visual contact, because the singer’s compás is what rules. Your surprise that singer and guitarist could not interact if they could not see each other indicates you don’t adhere to this arrangement. quote:
The rhythm of a melody, be it falseta or cante, is intrinsicly tied to the base rhythm. In popular music and many flamenco forms (guajira, petenera corta, alegrías, colombiana, farruca, etc...) this is true. I tend to think of cante as the basic trinity of soleá-siguiriyas-bulerías where the colchón is the base and the above statement doesn’t apply for cante as it does for guitar. In fact, I now think I’m to blame for creating a misunderstanding, because I was only considering basic cante, which somehow seems more “real”, but that’s a personal and unfair judgement. quote:
In that way, one can imply the other if it is not there. This is the flaw. With a competent singer, no guitarist has the authority to determine if the compás is “there”, at least in basic cante (as opposed to other cantes which function like pop music). “Not there” is your own subjective opinion, which as guitarist, is irrelevant during the cante. I know it sounds despotic and unfair, but the system works and is used by traditional interpreters. (Now it occurs to me you might mean in between letras when the singer isn't singing, in which case, disregard). quote:
Cante works not only on top of rasgueados, but also with palmas,or foot only. And, if need be, with nothing at all, just the feeling inside. Know what that feeling is, is how an accompanist can "read"a singer and follow him. It doesn’t work like that in practice. “The feeling inside”...but that’s the singer’s “inside”, not yours, and this brings us back to the metronome test which shows that not only compás, but even rhythm is perceived in different ways at different moments by different people, and cante has evolved in such a way that the singer commands. And this is turn is why the absence of eye contact makes basic cante impossible to accompany except in the jukebox sense where singer and guitarist would go through set motions. I’m almost certain it’s not possible to discuss this issue in writing. quote:
You’ve invented a system that works for you and your circle of regulars. quote:
I have done no such thing. You think you’re being a good samaritan when you help or fill out or correct the singer’s compás, but that can only by justified with inexperienced singers. quote:
does not free the guitarist to travel merrily down the lane of his own creative concepts, but rather he must be taking a reading every second. quote:
I Never said nor implied anything like that. Sheesh. What do you suppose the guitarist is "reading", if not the melody of the singer? That would be the notes or tones, and the RHYTHM. That is what makes a melody. “Taking a reading” means monitoring one fraction of a step *behind* the singer, fine-tuning the accompaniment every second. quote:
You keep implying that rhythm for a singer is different for the singer than a guitarist. No, I’m not implying it, I’m stating it flatly because it’s what I’ve observed over the second half of the twentieth century singing, playing guitar and dancing, and the concepts I’ve tried to express are what allow me to interact with other interpreters which is important to me....blind obedience to form is what lets the creative juices flow freely. You can’t imagine how different it feels to sing freely or sing being "bullied" by a guitarist who no doubt thinks he’s being helpful. quote:
Then how would any guitarist know or care what to "read"from the singer? To accompany well you have to read, and then react appropriately to that reading. quote:
In any case, guitar accompanists DO have a lot of creative freedoms anyway, in regards to accents and chords he likes to use. Accents don’t matter as long as there’s compás, but ill-advised chords can be very restrictive. One night a singer may weave a melody the guitarist thinks would sound good with an unusual alternative chord, and it sounds great. The next night, if the guitarist plays that same chord in the same spot, it might not sound as cool as the night before if the singer modifies the melody, and a dilemma is born. Does the singer charge through the cante and pay no attention to the guitarist, or try duplicate the melodic modification of the previous night? Few contemporary accompanists realize how confining this is, Marote spoke at length about this. One of the greatest guitarists his time, admired by everyone from Paco de Lucía “on down”, said he could no longer play for singers under a certain age because they needed to hear specific chords he didn’t use. quote:
The thing they understand, is how the cante melody fits to what they play, and can adjust according to the singer if the singer does it different too, while still keeping their own style. That’s close to correct. Great accompanists know the melodies of traditional cantes but never impose how they “fit”. Knowing the melodies gives them a jump-start so they’re always primed to back up the cante just right. If you play for a cuplé por bulerías you never heard before, you won’t have any problem with compás, but the chances of getting the chords right are small. quote:
Have you never seen a singer sing fuera compas? Ever? And if they did, would you say it is totally ok because the singer is allowed to have their own rhythm? Do you think Paquera sings however she pleases and cares nothing about the accents and rhythm of Parilla? Paquera did not follow Parrilla or Morao or anyone else. Without compás, there’s nothing, but compás is not the absolute value you think it is. It is in constant flux, and as a guitarist you don’t get to impose your personal concept of compás at a given moment. Cantes like siguiriya have much more leeway for “creative phrasing”, but even a clippy Jerez bulerías does flux, that’s where the metronome test comes in, and it’s the reason a guitarist cannot accompany a singer, except in a limited “song” sense, unless he can see the singer. quote:
Ricardo would tell us she couldn’t sing in compás. quote:
I never said any such thing. I know you didn’t, that’s why I used the conditional tense.
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