zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 20 2006 12:15:01)
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I really should have done the little white boxes, but it takes so much time....I've put multiple quote marks about everything that's previous text, yours or mine, and apologize for possible confusion....there's just no time to do it right... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - “””It was you asked if words could change the compás. No, I never asked. I was trying to point out the the melody and rhythm was more or less the same thing.””” I remember your asking, which is why I answered. I would normally cite your words, but without a search function it’s too time-consuming to dig back that far. It’s my fault for letting a few days go by, sorry. Cante is not melody in the pop music sense. A singer hears a base chord, or drone, or mother tone, or colchón, and weaves melodies based on traditional “markers” which might be the harmonic resolutions, or characteristic melisma at certain spots (the first line of soleá de Frijones for example), traditionally sustained notes, traditionally sharped tones at specific spots, etc. Within the limitations of those markers, which are what let us distinguish one cante from another, anything goes. ”””About Calchon/drone. Well, there would be no point for the guitarist to change chords at all, if the accompanysit's job was to simply supply a drone. That is what a drone is, the fundamental tonic. “”” You might call it a semi-drone. Cante used to be accompanied with two chords por medio, and two chords por arriba. Today every passing chord imaginable is employed, but soleá is still soleá. Even with three or four chords it’s a drone effect because the singer’s notes are not linked to the guitarist’s chords except superficially...it’s the resolutions that need to coincide. The nature of cante makes it impossible to be sung in unison with more than one voice, unless a specific melody is agreed upon and kept to. Imagine an entire football stadium of cantaores cheering on their team in unison por soleá...it’s unthinkable! “””Modal music is based on this. Modal music, or any music with drones implies NO HARMONY or NO CHORDS.””” The singer’s melody is what harmonizes, with or without additional chords. “””My point is that a palmero could "find the beat"when hearing cante, just as easy (if the palmero understands the melody) as the singer could sing to palmas that had already started.””” Without visual cues, never! Not without imposing his will on the singer, who might possibly follow. This is the system you seem to be describing, and I have a feeling your singers have become accustomed to it. I too would follow a guitarist imposing his compás, if only to keep the final product listenable. “””Likewise, a guitarist can pick up on the rhythm of the singer, without first having to see his or her foot. I say as easy for Solea as Alegrias.””” Please stop talking about the foot, that came from someone who didn’t understand what I wrote. There needs to be visual contact of some kind, NOT USUALLY THE SINGER’S FRICKEN FOOT FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Without the singer’s indication, the guitarist or palmeros can only guess at how the singer is fitting the cante at any given moment...there are infinite ways to fit cante to compás, the voice is not a percussive instrument except in the cited Cádiz cantes, which are extremely few and have limited use. The singer gets to work the compás in his or her own way because he or she is the individual producing the cante. Anything else, and you become an orchestra conductor! It’s impossible to conceive of cante as pop music with a score that everyone knows by heart. Try asking a singer to repeat what they just sang and listen to the many ways they modify what was sung only seconds before. ””” ‘The feeling inside’...but that’s the *singer’s* inside, not yours, Sorry, but as an accompanist, I try to make that feeling "mine"too. If not, how are we EVER together?””” The feeling reaches you through the singer’s compás, at least that’s how it works in Spain (I know you’re sensitive about being American, but the system has nothing to do with nationality, I’m American and play by Spanish rules). Again, I suspect you’ve set up a different, though viable system with your circle of regulars. Until the band leader says “a one, a two...” the various musicians in a group cannot get on the same track. In flamenco, the singer is the band leader, except of course when dancers mount specific choreographies. The guitarist is the third step in the hierarchy, and his or her mission is to accompany and tie together the signals received from the singer and the dancer, never the reverse. If I didn’t use the same system as everyone else, I wouldn’t have been able to survive musically in Spain for thirty-six years. ”””cante has evolved in such a way that the singer commands. I have never said the guitarist leads. My point always was that the guitar follows, follows the RHYTHM of the singer. And the tones. "base cante"or "alegrias", does not matter which. But the guitarist has to KNOW what it is the singer is doing rhythmically. “”” You cannot possibly know that unless you have a direct link to the singer’s brain. This link is provided by visual contact in ways you may not even be aware of: breathing, closing of the eyes at a certain point, a tilt of the head... All this, assuming the singer is not doing palmas, which is the best indication of the compás they’re doing. “Base cante” and “alegrías” are indeed different. Cantiñas however works like a base cante. Alegrías does not. Nor modern guajiras, many tangos... Some cantes have a set compás, but most do not. It’s no accident cante has such tremendous potential, and this is the reason the existing system shouldn’t be tampered with, even if the resulting music is nice. “”” There are lots of indicators in the voice, lots of guitarists can sing too. Surely the better accompanists can at least sing stuff in rhythm, even if they don't have a nice voice. “”” Plenty of guitarists sing, and good accompanists know cante well. When they sing they are then dictating the compás which others must follow. There is no escaping this. ”””I admit there is a lot of helpful clues to SEE in the body language of the singer, perhaps the foot, but mainly the face. But ultimately it is what is comming out of the mouth, the MELODY that dictates what the accompanist does.””” This is something you’ve convinced yourself of because singers are following your concept of compás. Like I said, it can be done, and inexperienced singers will think they have to tolerate it, or perhaps not even be aware of it. ”””You think you’re being a good samaritan when you help or fill out or correct the singer’s compás, but that can only by justified with inexperienced singers. Then what would it be, compas wise, that an "experienced"singer has over an inexperienced one? “”” No serious singer tolerates a guitarist who fits compás according to his own concept. They may not say anything, but they’ll avoid having to sing with you if there are other options. “””Especially, if singers are free to interpret as they like with "base cante"? For the record, I tend to not do that, but was just giving an example. If there is a "wrong"way to sing rhythmically, then there must be a "right way", that is my point.””” There are infinite wrong ways, and just as many right ways. You think your concept of how the cante should fit is the “right way”, but it’s only one way. Some foreign guitarists, even professionals, think lines of cante have to begin at the beginning of a compás, and end at the end of a compás, and will only accompany accordingly, considering any other arrangement “wrong”. This is an extreme example of course. ”””You keep bringing up the metronome "test", but that is regarding TEMPO only, just a part of what compas and rhythm means.””” Obviously, but I trust that when you realize the flux of what you thought was “steady” rhythm, you’ll understand how compás follows along...first comes a beat, then comes compás. “””I never said the guitarist imposes his rhythm to the singer, I am saying the singer can even FLUX as you say, the tempo, based on the RHYTHM of his melody. THAT is something the guitarist needs to understand and READ, in order to NOT impose his own personal tempo. Final point being the Cante has RHYTHM that is felt from inside and expressed outward in the melody.””” If it’s felt on the singer’s inside, how can you claim to read it without a visual clue? The only possible reason is that you believe compás (like rhythm) is an absolute value. The metronome will show you otherwise. ””Blind guitarists can be followed but not follow. This gets the crux of our differing point of view. “”” I wasn’t expressing any point of view, just describing an existing situation. “””I admit that there are helpful things to observe visually, especially the face, but the melody itself, the notes and rhythm coming out of the singer's mouth, is the main thing. “”” Compás is not merely helpful, it’s everything. “””A blind guitarist who understands cante COULD possibely accompany better than a seeing guitarist who does not know it as well, and just keeps time by watching a singers foot. “”” No blind guitarist can accompany cante. A blind guitarist can play chords and compás which a kindly singer can adjust to, and to all observers, everything sounds like business as usual. However the singer knows he or she is adapting to the guitarist’s concept every step of the way. It’s no big deal, but not something you want to do *all* the time. I’ll have instant coffee if it’s the only way to get my caffeine, but I’d much rather have fresh-made. “””Likewise a blind singer can follow a metronomic guitarist's chords, without needing to see his foot. I am sure there are some excellent blind accompanists around. And I think it is a very unfair general statement to make.””” Now you’re dictating the chords as well as the rhythm...you’ve really got them singers under your control :-). The existing system works, and it’s neither fair nor unfair, just the state of affairs that resulted after decades of hit and miss, and for which I cannot take credit nor be blamed.
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