RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping.

RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Bulerías basic timekeeping.

Marking a steady beat in 2's (2,4,6 etc)?

28% (19)

"Al Golpe" (1,2 - 4,,5 - 7,8 - 10,11)?

9% (6)

Marking the accented beats (3,6,8,10,12 or 7,8)?

30% (20)

A combination of the above

31% (21)

Total Votes : 66

(last vote on : Nov. 6 2019 16:01:41)

Message

Florian -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 20 2006 20:34:18)
quote: I have come to the conclusion that only guitar players truly appreciate other guitar players Yes we are our best friends and our worst enemyes too ( in a sense that we are our worst audience also)[:)]

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 20 2006 21:00:37)
quote: Zata, I think you've got to be a guitarist to really get into guitar-only Flamenco. I was a guitarist for years, but never liked guitar-only "flamenco" which always sounds to me like an "evocation" of flamenco, that's the best way I can describe it. When you see a great photograph of a sunset you think "how beautiful", but you're really staring at a piece of paper with colors on it. It's evoking something beautiful and you momentarily suspend disbelief to pretend you're looking at a sunset. Speaking of Paco and no credits, the same thing happened to me. I had to review his concert at the Málaga bull-ring...thousands of people, but I noticed no one had a program. When I asked at the office they said there was no program, I said I needed the names of the musicians, they said "Cositas Buenas". And every person in the group was a well-known musician.

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 20 2006 21:09:42)
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Florian -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 20 2006 21:10:13)
quote: the best way I can describe it. When you see a great photograph of a sunset you think "how beautiful", but you're really staring at a piece of paper with colors on it. It's evoking something beautiful and you momentarily suspend disbelief to pretend you're looking at a sunset. thanks [:)] now i am clear [:D]

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 20 2006 21:56:21)
Right, and having stated my case, I have to add that my first contact with flamenco was Sabicas. I bought his record with Enrique Montoya singing and promptly rerecorded the whole thing to edit out the annoying vocals [8D]

Ricardo -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 20 2006 22:29:12)
quote: An 11/2 hour program of cante-love it but maybe bored by the end. In andalucia a flamenco festival is 4 hours of non stop cante. At least they are different singers of course, but still, you would not get bored, believe me.[;)] Ricardo

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 20 2006 22:38:51)
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zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 20 2006 22:42:10)
quote: In andalucia a flamenco festival is 4 hours of non stop cante. The big summer festivals (Caracolá, La Puebla, etc..) are more like 6 hours, and some go on longer.

Florian -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 20 2006 22:43:56)
noone loughed at my joke so i deleted it[:(] its kates fault, shes loughed at one erlyer and i been trying to recreate that feeling ever since for myself.

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 20 2006 22:50:04)
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Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 20 2006 22:51:59)
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zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 20 2006 22:55:49)
quote: 6 hours of cante great----but is it one person singing without any backup-that Cante festivals rarely allow anything but cante with guitar. A dancer might bring a cajón or other paraphernalia.

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 20 2006 23:01:01)
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sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 6:44:49)
There are several factors involved for me if im going to enjoy 6 hours of cante, like; Are the singers any good, are they singing the same letras or palos over and over, have I slept enough before, is the PA system from 1944, is the audience loud and disrepectful etc etc. 6 hours of anything could easily become too much if the circumstances are wrong. But if the singers are really good i would stay awake and they usually break it up with dance and solos and then i would want more.

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 8:11:35)
quote: 6 hours of anything could easily become too much if the circumstances are wrong. It’s a sultry summer evening in southern Spain. Hundreds of fellow flamenco addicts have assembled in an outdoor area. The guy next to you has a big cooler and keeps pouring Tio Pepe into a plastic cup he gave you when he sat down. The wife offers you ham and the brother-in-law wants to know whether you prefer Antonio Mairena or Manolo Caracol. The singers run the gamut from fair to middling to excellent, and you spend most of the time debating their comparative merits with your new friends. After a couple of hours you go to the bar inside the festival area. There’s a small group singing and dancing bulerías, and you realize some of them are friends you haven’t seen in years. Between cantes they invite you to more Tío Pepe and order a plate of jumbo shrimp and another of cured cheese...more Tío Pepe, Lebrijano is sounding good, you go back to the main area but the folding chairs are scrambled so you sit somewhere else and another family adopts you, offering potato omelette and beer while you discuss whether or not Pansequito is having an off night. Suddenly you realize Manolo Franco is sitting next to you sharing the same omelette...he’s friendly and talks about Paco Cepero’s new guitar and Paco de Lucía’s picado and tells you he broke a nail earlier in the day. The microphone screeches and everyone laughs, back to the bar, some friends from town are there and you manage to order drinks just as Agujetas is going into soleá de Carapiera... A long bulerías free-for-all finally wraps up the event just as the early summer sun is brightening the sky, and you head for the nearest chocolate and churros place where there just might be some informal cante and fiesta. Festivals are flamenco happenings...the closest many people ever get to enjoying flamenco in a natural ambience far removed from the hushed auditoriums with velvet-covered seats some people prefer. They tell me I’m a romantic, but trying to make flamenco festivals civilized events goes against what nature intended. Just yesterday there was an official announcement from Málaga that only festivals that adhere to new guidelines will receive public funding. The guidelines include an obligatory “panda de verdiales” (entertaining though cheesey folk groups), a maximum of 4 singers, one local dance group, limited bar service and table seating. I guess that’s a bureaucrat’s concept of “fun” in the year 2007.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 8:17:18)
quote: quote: It’s unfortunate guitarist’s names are often overlooked. This is an unrelated issue. I think it shows VERY well how things are, Anders, what I meant was, one thing is the musical dynamic that makes cante tick, and another, unrelated thing is how shows are announced. The former cannot be changed without changing the nature of flamenco, the latter is a matter of etiquette that can easily be changed if people so desire. Nevertheless, people are far more interested in who's singing at a cante recital than who's playing. When Paco uses cante as embellishment for his playing, it's more important he's Paco, than whether the singer is Duquende, Potito or Rafael de Utrera. Estela, It seems to me that you dont get it. When I read the mass of your postings, I get this feeling that what you say is: Everything is the way it is, dont change it, because it wont be better.... I agree that things are good, flamenco is doing well, but the lack of respect I was talking about, and which you prefer to see as something of no real importance, is a part of the culture that IMHO would be a VERY good idea to change. Only by changing this attitude, there´ll be a chance of evolving flamenco to be an artform with much more interaction than there is nowadays. I know the names of the guitarists are not on the poster because they are not hired yet, and thats normal and IMO bad. Its the origin of this play it safe guitarist, dont interfere with the singers inspiration, way of doing things, which is so conservative and which some people like very much. Of course you´ll have to play it safe, when you dont even get a change to know you are playing until the day before the show........ I´m 100% sure that flamenco would be a much more interesting thing if this was changed. We´ve discussed before, that cante is having a difficult time, speaking about comercializstion, CD´s etc. I think it´s cantes own fault, because its so goddam conservative that most people nowadays dont really care for it, which is a BIG shame, because its a very potential artform. This leads to all this solo guitar stuff. Most of it boring IMO. Since guitarists dont get a chance with the singers, they have evolved this music style with this embellishment cante which is like a thin soup made of the rests of yesterdays cante.... Maybe if things were changed, if Cante singers stopped behaving like a lot of them do, this would change and we would have a much more intersting artform. Everyone would win, especially the singers. [:)] Its all about fear. I see a lot of fear in flamenco and especially in Cante. Fear of change, even for the better. (Vivir con miedo es vivir a medias[;)]) Its fun you name PDL, because he´s such a good example. I really like PDL, his contribution has been enourmous. He´s the reference point for guitarists. But, when I want to hear Paco play, I find some of the old Camaron recordings, because thats where Paco is really on. Everything is so vibrant, his compás,his interactin with Camarón, his falsetas and even his errors are VIBRANT. His solo recordings, The early ones are great, but there´s no cante....[:-] Later on with the sextet..... Well.... some good things and some elevator music mixed together. I didn´t even go to his concert when he was here.[8\|]

sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 8:24:25)
quote: Festivals are flamenco happenings...the closest many people ever get to enjoying flamenco in a natural ambience far removed from the hushed auditoriums with velvet-covered seats some people prefer. They tell me I’m a romantic, but trying to make flamenco festivals civilized events goes against what nature intended. [:D] Yeah, of course it can be really good as well. But ive been to small festivals where only the main act was good, the rest not so much and the people in the audience wasnt interested in what was happening on stage, the PA system was howling with feedback for hours and most of the singers couldnt be heard. A couple of hours of that is quite the opposite of a nice experience. But the first festival i was to was the way you described though, and i was sitting with a japanese girl and we were listening to the comments of the people around us about the singers and pretty detailed critical analysis about what they should have done instead when they didnt like it and loud shouts of encouragement when they did something well. And that was very informative. And as it was our first festival we didnt really realise that it would continue for as many hours as it did so the people around us offered us wine and great homemade food, when they saw that, and they were really warm and curious about our interest in flamenco. So together with some great cante, that was a really really nice experience and is the foundation of my love for the ambience and cante festivals. quote: I think it´s cantes own fault, because its so goddam conservative that most people nowadays dont really care for it, which is a BIG shame, because its a very potential artform. If you listen to camaron or duquende there is/was a lot of innovation going on, but it takes quite a singer to be able to pull that off. And its not really mainstream music, i dont think cante will ever be because the general development in mainstream music seems to be towards simpler and dumber music, and cante is the opposite of that. It doesnt even share the same machine-like ethetics as mainstream music. Cante is already an artform and has been so for quite a long time, i mean its more than a potential artform, but i can see that it gets a little boring hearing exactly the same letras sang in more or less the same way over and over, so a bit more noncommersial experimentation and innovation wouldnt hurt.

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 8:53:58)
“””Estela, It seems to me that you dont get it. When I read the mass of your postings, I get this feeling that what you say is: Everything is the way it is, dont change it, because it wont be better....””” You’re mixing questions of etiquette that can easily be changed, with technical musical questions that can only be tampered with at risk of changing the face of flamenco. Tuning your guitar before playing, making sure you know the singer’s tone and following the singer rather than leading are basic requirements that cannot be treated frivolously nor modified without extremely good cause. ”””I agree that things are good, flamenco is doing well, but the lack of respect I was talking about, and which you prefer not to see as something of no real importance, is a part of the culture that IMHO would be a VERY good idea to change.””” You're going to have to cite anything I've written that indicates to you I “prefer not to see” a lack of respect. Yesterday I emphasized that I didn't like being paraphrased, and this shows why. ”””I know the names are not on the poster because they are not hired yet, and thats normal and IMO bad. Its the origin of this play it safe guitarist, dont interfere with the singers inspiration, way of doing things, which is so conservative and which some people like very much.””” Not interfering with singers is the most fundamental flamenco priority because everything stems from cante, a historical fact. Some new singers who sound so sterile (no names need be cited) are being led by star guitarists. Flamenco as we know it cannot exist without cante, no matter how much you enjoy guitar solos. Even the solos relate back to the flamenco feeling derived from cante, although now the aesthetic is established you could theoretically eliminate cante. Does anyone really want to do that? ”””We´ve discussed before, that cante is having a difficult time, speaking about comercializstion, CD´s etc. I think it´s cantes own fault, because its so goddam conservative that most people nowadays dont really care for it, which is a BIG shame, because its a very potential artform.””” “Cante’s own fault”? Cante is not a human being, but an art form interpreted by human beings. Since most cantaores are not professional, it’s safe to assume there is no market pressure to sing in a way which is contrary to their true feelings. “Flamenco as museum piece” is a lie being promoted by record companies who are only interested in people who purchase records, something cante aficionados seldom do. The dreaded cante festivals continue to draw thousands of people, each year new festivals appear and the price of tickets to sit on a folding wooden chair has gone up to 20 or 30 euros in many cases, that’s $26-$39. Does that suggest “people nowadays don’t really care for cante”? ”””This leads to all this solo guitar stuff. Most of it boring IMO. Since guitarists dont get a chance with the singers, they have evolved this music style with this embellishment cante which is like a thin soup made of the rests of yesterdays cante.... Maybe if things were changed, if Cante singers stopped behaving like a lot of them do, this would change and we would have a much more intersting artform.””” It’s time you cite specific information about singers’ “bad behaviour” (not counting Agujetas) because you’re insulting hundreds of fine artists and good people, many of whom I consider friends. Guitarists have been playing falsetas for the last century, but that must not have been fulfilling enough. ”””Its fun you name PDL, because he´s such a good example. I really like PDL, his contribution has been enourmous. He´s the reference point for guitarists. But, when I want to hear Paco play, I find some of the old Camaron recordings, because thats where Paco is really on. Everything is so vibrant, his compás,his interactin with Camarón, his falsetas and even his errors are VIBRANT.””” I thought you said guitarists don’t get a chance with singers.

sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 9:08:49)
What seems to get me in trouble in a lot of discussions seem to be when i point out that flamenco gravitates around cante and that even sologuitar is an extension of the same thing. Guitar music in other styles of music have traditionally another roll than it has in flamenco and people seem to want to impose that same roll on flamenco guitar. And when i dont agree with that, some people jump all over me. I mean the length, expression and form of a falseta has to do with its roll in relation to the cante and a solo is just further extension of a falseta. And the attack, rhytmical parts and rasgeados has to do with what the guitar does to dance. When people break these forms in solos it doesnt sound very flamenco anymore, because that relation is gone and it sounds like another type of music than flamenco. And i dont mean modern vs traditional or that the guitarist should follow the same melody as a singer would, its more subtle than that, but its very clear when a soloists havent got any clue about this connection to cante or push that limit into fusion. Guitarists like paco or tomatito can do fusion because they have that relation to cante naturally and usually still keeps that connection to cante in there, even when they are doing fusion. And you could be very modern or be a foreigner, a guiri soloist, but still manage to keep your playing within the boundaries of what flamenco is about. IMHO

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 12:25:35)
quote: You're going to have to cite anything I've written that indicates to you I “prefer not to see” a lack of respect. Yesterday I emphasized that I didn't like being paraphrased, and this shows why. I actually cited you.....but maybe not in a way you liked. What do I know? BUT, I´m going to leave you in peace now. I´ve always tried to act an a respectfull way and will continue so. BUT I´m not going to continue a discussion where you twist every thing which I write (read your own and my last post) and at the same time yell because I do not cite you well enough. Stay cool, no problems and noone hurt. I will continue enjoying the rest of this wonderfull forum. Merry christmas Anders

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 13:17:18)
quote: I actually cited you.....but maybe not in a way you liked. Anders, I just took time out from my work to go over everything you and I wrote, but was unable to find the words, or anything remotely similar to "prefer not to see lack of respect", so I conclude you employed paraphrasing and not direct quotes, but I may have overlooked some message. I stand by everything I write in any medium, but cannot take responsibility for other people's paraphrasing. This may seem rigid, but I work in a rough-and-tumble environment where my opinions and observations are constantly being scrutinized, so it's important they are not presented in a false light.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 13:39:03)
quote: I work in a rough-and-tumble environment where my opinions and observations are constantly being scrutinized, so it's important they are not presented in a false light. This I understand and respect, but I dont understand why these rigid rules (your words) do not count for yourself. Your second last post is one big manipulation of what I´ve written so far. I´m of. Anders

zata -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 14:31:37)
quote: This I understand and respect, but I dont understand why these rigid rules (your words) do not count for yourself. Your second last post is one big manipulation of what I´ve written so far. Anders, I apply the most rigid rules to myself, and therefore to others. If something is out of line, it needs to be quoted and addressed in detail. Accusations of "twisting" (your previous message) and "manipulation" are very serious and require nothing less than direct quotes. I know it takes a lot of time and trouble, but there is no honorable alternative. Your behaviour makes it impossible for me to continue participating in this group. I know at least some people have enjoyed the conversation, and invite them to contact me privately if they wish to continue. My email is zata@wanadoo.es. The server has been irregular lately, so if I don't respond promptly, resend the message. Happy holidays to everyone.

Mark2 -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 14:51:10)
I do happen to like things the way they are with the guitarist at the service of the singer, hanging on his every inflection, dedicated to supplying just the right touch to inspire him even more. That complete freedom is what makes cante so expressive. I really could do with a lot less passing chords. I don't like how guitar records use the singer as a back up just to do a choro or a line here or there. And I really don't like the flamenco guitar "group" The last two I were PdL's and VA's and I would have enjoyed both concerts more if they would have left the bassists and cajon players at home. Give me Paco, a few singers, a dancer or two, the palmas, and I'm lovin it. Maybe my tastes are outdated, but I like the art that the historical arrangement produces more than what some people think belongs on a record.

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 21 2006 16:34:45)
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sonikete -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 16:48:18)
A lot of maestros are gone but I havent lost all hope about younger generations and i think these things move in cycles where some not so interesting things are popular for a while. And I think its good times for flamenco myself and i can enjoy a sologuitar concert too even if i would prefer seeing good cante. [:)]

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 17:52:03)
quote: Your behaviour makes it impossible for me to continue participating in this group. Thats not true. I already said I would stop arguing with you. You can continue happily in this group, I´m not going to interfere. Mis cordiales saludos Anders Eliasson

koella -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 21 2006 21:22:16)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson quote: Your behaviour makes it impossible for me to continue participating in this group. Thats not true. I already said I would stop arguing with you. You can continue happily in this group, I´m not going to interfere. Mis cordiales saludos Anders Eliasson Come on Anders, you don't have to fall on your knees and beg for something you didn't do ?![8\|] This is a forum. We're paraphrasing and citing all the time. It's a habit here !

Ricardo -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 22 2006 16:02:48)
quote: Don't know where it is but somebody said something about a drone with 3 or 4 chords. Granted, you don't need so many passing chords, there are enough notes in a melody that are focused on(not melimas but points of resolution and passing) tp warrant more than 4 chords. A good example Bnatural in A phrygian. Before Paco, people didn't know what to do with that. Now everyone knows to play E. Play the melody to "sone que sevilla" tangos from saura as sung by Juana la del revuelo. One can accompany using A, Bb, and C but not very good. Eb implies an F7 chord. All else ok I guess. I know, why impose "my" harmony. Paco was smart enough to begin to hear these things. I cringe when I hear dminor over a sung b note. Good observations, although a totally different topic. I don't disagree. I think that the flamenco songs that are as we say "phrygian" are a sort of hybrid of modal and tonal ideas. You can still harmonize the melody with a progression of functioning chords, but that is not "modal" music. The idea behind modal music is to have a drone, never move. All the notes of a melody can be sung against the drone. Siguiriyas for example often has the chords just keeping the compas more than harmonizing. But there are times it is ok to go to an F chord or C chord or even E7 for a compas, to harmonize better the melody. But siguiriyas can also be sung to a drone, and still works nicely. For example that is what is done on "Canto" by Pele. Vicente plays ONE chord the whole time. That is truely modal. Still pretty, but the color is created by the melody only, relative to tonic. About the chords for harmonizing cante, it is not just Paco. In fact I am sure he did not invent "E7" cambio for por medio cantes. That is a very old trad. idea. Same with F7 to Bb. Ricardo

Ricardo -> RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (Dec. 22 2006 16:11:32)
quote: Guitar music in other styles of music have traditionally another roll than it has in flamenco and people seem to want to impose that same roll on flamenco guitar. And when i dont agree with that, some people jump all over me. There is plenty of music where the guitar's role is just to do chords. Even in jazz, the guitar is the only harmonic instrument other than keys/piano. The horns just stand there when not doing the lead. No one disagreed that the guitar's role in flamenco is to accompany. The reason for "jumping on you" was because you were implying that solo guitar is not flamenco, or at least that is where disagreements started. Later you clearified that solo guitar could be flamenco if based on cante. Fine, but you go further and dicover it is really like I said, where you draw your own personal line is different than others, concerning how "flamenco" a guitar solo can be. Like you just said again, it is "subtle", meaning, something you notice but can't really explain. Yet you came off earlier like that is the collective Spain view and things, rather than a more personal taste issue. That is why the "jumping on you" I think. No biggie, it is over. But the rubberband timing will never be over![:@][:D] Ricardo

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