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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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[Poll]
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Bulerías basic timekeeping.
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| Marking a steady beat in 2's (2,4,6 etc)? |
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| "Al Golpe" (1,2 - 4,,5 - 7,8 - 10,11)? |
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| Marking the accented beats (3,6,8,10,12 or 7,8)? |
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| A combination of the above |
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Total Votes : 66
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(last vote on : Nov. 6 2019 16:01:41)
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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 RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
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”Oops, sorry. Then I guess your
observation is 100% wrong. “
Compás for a singer is not what you think it is, but it’s possible this is not something that can be described properly in writing...in fact I’m now sure of it.
“Singing can be on or off the beat, either way, it is a rhythm.”
A singer has many more ways of expressing the compás than simply on or off the beat. Indicating a chord change, adding melisma or simply keeping silent at strategic moments. Ricardo Pachón likes to say Antonio Mairena couldn’t sing in compás. Since Mairena was known for his brilliant compás, I cornered him recently to ask what he was talking about. He said Mairena didn’t know enough to begin on beat one and end on the ten. However the twelve concept is unrelated to cante in any real sense. Guitarists and dancers work percussively and continuously, it’s a different dimension. Singing in twelves is like what Fosforito does, we call that “cuadradito”, and there’s a certain derrogatory intent. I love Fosforito, but he is undeniably cuadradito.
“Well, sorry about it. For me anyway,
I notice when something is played
more controlled and even than something
else. But maybe it is just me, I don't
know. “
Don’t be so sure until you do the metronome test.
“Well before you go crazy with that break through
idea, you may want to read up on modal music and
tuning systems first. Lot of info about how the equal
tempered tuning interferes with modal playing/singing
as been thouroughly discussed. There is a book by
Danilou I can think of off hand.”
I’ve researched opera for this purpose only because on the radio discussion program the sarcastic challenge has been “oh yeah? sharp?...well you just go and ask any opera singer what they think about that!”. I did, and found out the technique is highly prized, and was taken to admirable heights by singers like Callas and Rysanek. I’d always assumed it was a given that Jerez singers sing dissonant, but it turns out no one here is aware of it That’s the only reason I decided to write about it, to “legitimize” the technique as applied in flamenco.
”But just to be clear, do you think Paquera sings
"sharp", or right on pitch most of the time? “
Paquera sings sharp nearly all the time, it’s her “sello”. Agujetas sharpens up his soaring held notes, but usually only in siguiriyas and tonás, it’s bone-chilling. Terremoto does something similar. Aurora Vargas is sharp most of the time. Those are the most obvious examples.
Estela
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 13 2006 20:55:03
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
I mean that some people cant play a complicated falseta without a crutch.
I understand what you are getting at. My drummer friend once called practicing with "Dr. Beat" or programming a drum machine to support your "countra" rhythms, was like a "potty training" metronome. Point being you have to beable to do that stuff by yourself, with only a click reference. So I agree with you here. But I think my main point is that if a player CAN'T do it to just a click, then he is not really "doing it" properly, even it is seems ok with his "crutch". It should be no problem, or not a chase game or whatever. The people that CAN do it are the ones I refer to. They jive better with live people than folks loosly chasing the click. I dont' consider the ones useing a "potty training" method, necessarily "tight" players. It can be tough to hear someone playing with a metronome or drum machine "wrong" and have to say to them, "no you are not tight with it". Then they get all stiff and unnatural because they are fighting the thing. But it is part of the growing processes for a musician that wants to play with others.
quote:
The diffrence is that it´s not a rythm you can´t always tap your foot to.
True, but my point is that OFTEN TIMES, IT IS. I mean without palmas or guitar, snap or tap, just the melody itself, of say solea, Alegria, bulerias, tangos, etc, gives plenty of rhythm information. Hereing the melody, and know how that melody feels in the compas, the listener should be able to find the singer's internal tempo beat from hearing him sing a capella. Unless I am not getting the point, it seems Estela was saying this is NOT true, hence the strangeness of Farruquito's bulerias.
In my experience as an accompanist, I have had to "come in" with only the first 3 words or syllables of cante as a rhythmic reference, with a couple different singers. Those 3 syllables tell you where the beat is, and how fast you need to play. I learned that by making mistakes until I started to hear how the melodies fit into the compas, proper. I know that singers have lots of room for liberty and improvisation, but even there, the rhythm can be expressed with the voice. I have also struggled with singers who obviously did not know the compas, and had to decide in a split second to follow or lead, depending on how crossed it felt. Working with many different singers helps, but not a luxury for most foreighnors. But even still, working extensively with ONE good singer, and refering to recordings, can at least get one on the right path so at least a freakin juerga won't fall apart because of issues of not being "together".
Ricardo
PS, I am going for 12 pages with this thread. That way I can refer folks to pages 3,6,8,10,and 12, or pages 2,4,6,8,10, 12, or 7,8,10, etc, depending on what is needed. This has all been cleverly planned! 
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Date Dec. 13 2006 22:06:52
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Hereing the melody, and know how that melody feels in the compas, the listener should be able to find the singer's internal tempo beat from hearing him sing a capella. Unless I am not getting the point, it seems Estela was saying this is NOT true, hence the strangeness of Farruquito's bulerias.
It seems like a challenge to explain this, but it may not be possible.
OF COURSE cante has compás, but not in the same sense that a percussive instrument does. A drummer beats 1 and 2 and 3 and there's no ambiguity, but when a singer does "ayyyyyy", you can only guess where they're thinking the compás. When there's no guitar or palmas, a singer marks the compás they're feeling in some way...palmas, foot, knuckles, etc...so listeners can know what their "foil" is. If I clap three times, no one can possibly know if those are downbeats or upbeats unless there's a reference. This is why Farruco's (not Farruquito's) bulerías galácticas were so unusual.
It's hard to explain, maybe someone else can do a better job.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 13 2006 22:51:17
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
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quote:
but when a singer does "ayyyyyy", you can only guess where they're thinking the compás.
Well, I get what you are saying, I just disagree that is all. A good singer does that in some kind of rhythm too. ay, ay , Ayyyyyy iiiiiiii ayyyyyyyiiiiiiiiayyyyyyyy!. I mean that has rhythm when I hear it done right. But singers don't only sing that. Syllabels are rhythmic.
quote:
If I clap three times, no one can possibly know if those are downbeats or upbeats unless there's a reference.
Well, that is the whole point of playing for dance classes, to get those rhythmic cues down. Sometimes, thats all we get are 3 stomps or something, then booom, your are off, hopefully not crossed. 3 strong claps could be a llamada, it all depends on the context. One dancer did 3 stomps, but they were countra, from ZERO. Of course you have to know SOME info about what is happening. Is it gonna be bulerias, alegrias, wtf? A good accomp. needs only a few little clues to get on track. New commers need to hear several compas before they can come in, if they get it at all, it really depends on your ear and your level of understanding what is going on. In the end, alot of this is the fun game of compas, little rhythmic cues.
quote:
And yet, of all the singers in the world, and all the possibilities, you asked if I thought Paquera sang sharp...you must be hearing something too.
Well, to me, she is not just any old flamenco singer. I am hearing more than "something", but these things can be a matter of taste. As a musician, point of view being OUTSIDE of flamenco, I would say she sings perfectly in tune. As a flamenco accompanist, I would say her tonos are especially crystal clear. Even her melismas are perfect.
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 13 2006 23:10:39
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
There are cues in the voice that good singers give so i have to go with ricardo on this one. As an example, the tiriti usually starts on 10+ but that is not the important thing. Look for the "tra" and you will find if it is not on twelve , it is reflecting it. That is a cue that guitarists need(those pickup notes). The singers give many cues and the best singers give the best cues. Of course, the best guitarists can decipher cues that mere mortals (Like me) couldn't, but those cues are still there.
I hate to say it, but you and Ricardo are a singer's worst nightmare...the guitarist who decides how the singer wants the compás to be. As accompanist your mission is not to lead the singer around by the nose, but merely to keep compás, we know exactly what we want to do, and if a resolution is to be off the beat, you have no business making it on the beat. You are not the compas-giver, you have to be, like it or not, the fawning servant. This is one of the most important things you need to know to accompany well, and I don't think any singers are able to explain it, least of all me.
The same thing with chord changes. However well you know the cante, you have to wait for the cadence, and if it comes on 3 or 5 or 9 or any other beat, you have to scramble to make it sound good, singers get to do all these things, and that's why cante is so improvisational and expressive. Add your neat formula, and maybe it's pretty music, but the cante can't blossom.
As far as "tiriti", that's one of those Cádiz things where the voice becomes a percussive instrument, so it is not illogical to say where it begins or ends. But that kind of cante is only about one tenth of one percent of the entire cante repertoire.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 14 2006 0:21:33
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Ricardo
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to zata)
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quote:
I hate to say it, but you and Ricardo are a singer's worst nightmare...
Sorry Romerito, see what happens when you agree with me?
quote:
As far as "tiriti", that's one of those Cádiz things where the voice becomes a percussive instrument,
 Same with the colatilla too I guess since that is the melody without the lyric? Por favor.
Ok to be fair,to myself and Romerito at least, I had to dig back to chapter 5 for this quote again:
quote:
...the guitarist was right next to me but there was a slim decorative partition between us and too many people to be able to glimpse one another. I started singing, and in seconds there was no unison...we tried again...again it didn't work. Finally we realized we could see each other's feet, and only by observing each other's beat as marked by the feet were we able to get it together...very edifying experience.
Well to be fair, I too hate to say it, but if you are a professional singer, then you are likewise a guitarist's worst nightmare. 
Ricardo
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Date Dec. 14 2006 4:46:57
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Bulerías basic timekeeping. (in reply to Ricardo)
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”Same with the colatilla too I guess since that is
the melody without the lyric?”
You can’t possibly think it has to do with the words. Coletillas are cantiñas, which is conventional cante...it’s just that we sometimes tack them on to other cantes. Being cantiñas they have a different poetic meter, but it’s the one shared with siguiriyas. You must have heard Cádiz bouncey things, it’s what they’re most famous for. The trabalenguas la Perla and Camarón sang are in the same category, those tongue-twister endings with a set number of syllables per beat, and no room for variation. You’ve probably heard a famous cuplé in minor of Mairena’s which Camarón recorded: “Era trianera y se llamaba Carmen...” It starts out like a normal song, but Camarón ends it with a trabalengua – that is percussive cante, and as soon as you identify it, you’ll realize how it is radically different from conventional cante. Often these endings are done with nonsense syllables, but that does not change their percussive nature. Such endings (and similar bits) represent only a very tiny fraction of all cante, and cannot be taken as models. Cante works over what Spanish musicians call a “colchón” (I don’t know what that is in English, perhaps ‘drone’?), and never lays out the compás the way you’re describing.
”Well to be fair, I too hate to say it, but
if you are a professional singer, then you
are likewise a guitarist's worst nightmare.”
You’ve invented a system that works for you and your circle of regulars, much like studio flamenco, and anything which works is, by definition, fine. But to interact in flamenco, whether at a fiesta or in a work situation, hierarchies and traditional systems exist. Yerbabuena sets shows that are very successful, based on countless hours of rehearsal. But can she interact with other flamenco artists? Making your own rules, however viable they may be, means not being able to interact on the same level as other interpreters (unless you teach them your system and they are willing to use it). Of course singers can follow guitarists if they choose...but they aren’t likely to do so.
It’s an amazing system that’s taken a couple of hundred years of “hit and miss” to evolve...don’t discard it so breezily.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Dec. 14 2006 9:09:45
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