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Hi all, I'm trying to build a Conde FC28 style guitar similar to the one Paco played. Am having a tough time finding the correct bracing pattern for the Paco guitar. Would be fantastic if someone here could please help me out with the correct bracing diagram. Looking forward to your replies :)
RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to RobJe)
Hey thanks RobJe for the link. yes, I did look at that post earlier. I was wondering which 2005 Conde model acted as the basis for this project? was it the FC28?
Does anyone have the specific bracing for the Filipe Conde FC28, please? Surely someone's gotta have some information on the FC28?
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to slowhand9)
quote:
ORIGINAL: slowhand9
Hey thanks RobJe for the link. yes, I did look at that post earlier. I was wondering which 2005 Conde model acted as the basis for this project? was it the FC28?
Does anyone have the specific bracing for the Filipe Conde FC28, please? Surely someone's gotta have some information on the FC28?
First of all, Paco played a 1975 sobrinos de esteso. Secondly, the bracing of the 2005 Felipe V build is the exact same as the FC28...that being what was then the "A26" model....which incidentally is the same as the AF25 bracing, the number only refering to the wood on back and sides (Paco's guitar would be more similar to Felipe's FC27 IMO). As far as the bracing on Paco's guitar, I can only say that the bracing on my 1973 sobrinos is the exact same as the pattern in the link (A26) except for the two long braces dont extend around the soundhole, they stop at the harmonic bar.
RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to Ricardo)
thanks for the information Ricardo. Much appreciated. Is it possible to have photos of the bracings of your 1973 Sobrinos, please? Shall be most obliged if you could consider posting some photos of the insides.
I think that might be Pau Ferro. I have a Pau Ferro Sanchis Bulerias which looks like that.
Read before Paco's Conde he played a Pau Ferro Conde, I think for Fantasias; which to my ears sounds more like a Pau Ferro guitar than a EIR/BRW guitar; PF guitars have a more distinctive sound in the trebles to the rosewoods.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to Echi)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
Hi, a good friend of Paco (btw an esteemed collector of flamenco guitars on his own) told me that it's Pau Ferro.
I read that online long ago too and after handling some Pau ferro guitars and scanning online examples of the wood, I feel Paco's guitar (thanks to those pics at the german site) looks too dark, plain and tight and straight grained to be that fancy Bolivian rosewood. I admit I could be wrong, but looking at examples of Indian they all look kind of "boring" and the "same" in that sense, and Pau Ferro examples are wildly varied. Only thing that stands out on Paco's guitar is the sides near the neck where they grain pattern all slants the same direction. My own guitar that is Indian actually does the same thing to a lesser degree. Here some photos to compare:
RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to Ricardo)
The site says Paco's guitar is made of palisander which could be almost any tropical hardwood. Usually palisander refers to cocobolo and the pictures look a lot like the cocobolo I've used. Could also be E. Indian with a tint added to the finish. I haven't seen any pao ferro that looks like the wood in his guitar but I don't like pao ferro for guitars so haven't seen a lot.
RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to slowhand9)
Hi, as you know Pau ferro is a name often use for different species of CSA rosewood. Anyway, the fellow I spoke with for many years was quite close to Paco, and he's not the kind of guy to boast of these things. He told me Pau Ferro as this what he was told. To me this doesn't look as indian (mainly for the color). You would need of a close up to see the pores to say it for sure though.
Posts: 16227
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to Echi)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
Hi, as you know Pau ferro is a name often use for different species of CSA rosewood. Anyway, the fellow I spoke with for many years was quite close to Paco, and he's not the kind of guy to boast of these things. He told me Pau Ferro as this what he was told. To me this doesn't look as indian (mainly for the color). You would need of a close up to see the pores to say it for sure though.
My post above was long ago where I compare the Indian rosewood pics of my guitar to the pics of Paco's and to me it was always quite similar. I missed that in 2024 you posted that Mariano Conde claimed to have done a refinish in 1998 and confirmed that it was in fact INDIAN ROSEWOOD all along, as I was thinking. But I am posting this now because it popped up in my news feed on YouTube. He says "palo Santo de India RUBIO", as in blondish color Indian rosewood, which I have never heard of.
RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to slowhand9)
This old post reflects the infos we had in 2014 which are not actual anymore. Back and sides are probably made of indian rosewood. I own a 64 Conde with a very similar kind of rosewood and the same vein direction which is so compact you may misunderstand for a different species: I even thought it was a kind of granadillo wood or Pau ferro while it’s probably Indian. For many years it was believed the wood was pauferro by many who inspected the guitar (Ricardo Sanchis, Johannes Inhoffen etc.) but so that the typical copies of Paco’s guitar where built with that wood ( btw so it is also the homage model made by Felipe Conde). Recently Mariano said it was Indian rosewood. We wait for a definite word by Vicente Carrillo.
The shape of the plantilla is unusual for Conde, being slightly narrower at the waist. Bracing pattern is a fan bracing kind but with a different shape than the picture above. The shape of the pattern is more angled and the 3 central struts are closer to each other. I suspect the back carries 4 struts (at least my 64 Conde does). All these features work for a more rigid structure than typical for a Conde of those years. I guess it made a dull kind of guitar which get powerful and clear when pushed hard.
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RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to Echi)
I guess those old rosewood stocks used to built those guitar in 60s, 70s, 80s era probably often came from wild grown trees and thus much more variety versus the more plantation grown stuff in India that later became standard with a typical look, hence sometimes could be mistaken for other wood types?
Posts: 16227
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to Echi)
quote:
Recently Mariano said it was Indian rosewood. We wait for a definite word by Vicente Carrillo.
Yes Mariano put up another short reiterating this thing, the link I put up there was a post last year. Let us know if Carrillo insists it is not Indian. This is fun for me because I have had these questions for so many years. My main thing is there are some many "Brazilian RW" guitars and they all look different, but Indian Rosewood guitars tend to look more or less the same.
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RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to slowhand9)
While the bracing pattern is a starting point, I have to say that it is much less important than people generally seem to think. What may be even more important is how the sound board is graduated in thickness, how the cross section of the fan braces is dimensioned and shaped, how much the ends of the braces are scalloped.... I would wager that any popular "bracing pattern" could be used to give the same result as another by controlling these factors.
Ethan is not alone in making the point that the layout of the bracing is not a magic bullet. Many luthiers say this, or something near it.
And yet some luthiers think the layout has an effect, for instance many luthiers say the presence or absence of the closing bars seems to have an impact. And surely Santos Hernandez wouldn't have been so methodical in his career-long experiments with bracing layout if he wasn't trying to learn something.
Alan Carruth's comments from his modes/scientific measurement framework provide a way of possibly integrating the conflicting pictures. He talks about balance between the soundboard and bracing being necessary to good outcomes for issues that can be controlled like volume, response, balance, and basic tone. But he admits that a lot of the higher frequency vibrations which contribute to the character of the sound are not predictably controllable by his methods. Although I don't think Carruth has said this explicitly, from what I understand these more subdivided patterns of vibration might well be affected by the layout of the braces.
quote:
ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras
While the bracing pattern is a starting point, I have to say that it is much less important than people generally seem to think. What may be even more important is how the sound board is graduated in thickness, how the cross section of the fan braces is dimensioned and shaped, how much the ends of the braces are scalloped.... I would wager that any popular "bracing pattern" could be used to give the same result as another by controlling these factors.
RE: Wanted: Conde FC28 Bracing diagram (in reply to slowhand9)
I agree with Ethan of course. Yet, if I wanted to make a replica of the guitar played by Paco, all the elements matter: I would seek for similar woods, thicknesses, dimension, plantilla, domino's and bracing pattern.
The screenshot is from a replica of the Conde played by Paco made by Felipe Conde Jr. The shot is made by Alberto Martinez and published in Orfeo magazine
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
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My main thing is there are some many "Brazilian RW" guitars and they all look different, but Indian Rosewood guitars tend to look more or less the same. 
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