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his speed is not on par with paco but he is very creative and had a broad spectrum of playing
no, but tomatito has said in an interview "paco is the king of the flamenco guitar", though i would put tomatito on par with paco technique and creativity wise, thoguh others may disagree. but if everyone imitiated paco flamenco would be a littel stale IMO. I personally dont think the title of greatest guitar palyer belongs to anyone, because no one will know every single falseta for each estillo no matter how long one had to live.
juan martin has great technique, and what he plays is flamenco, it's just down to personal taste. i bought his el alquemista cd, and i must say i was impressed by it.
also i think there tends to be alot of snobbery or alot like to call him out as a fraud.when in fact he is'nt.
as regards his past id said fair deuce to him for travelling to malaga when he was in his teens to learn more guitar, and to come back to make a living from it.
What place has Ottmar? Is he a goldfish? Or the GK, are they Rumba-cats?
thats another topic and u know they do have they place in there too, like it or not, admit it or not many of us outside Spain looked deeper into into flamenco because of guys or grups like this.
also i think there tends to be alot of snobbery or alot like to call him out as a fraud.when in fact he is'nt.
I have no idea where he is from, i never assumed he wasent spanish.
Look i know everyone has his taste, if u like his cool i cant take that away from you its your own responsibility to stay true to what u like..
but cmon lets not get crasy compearing him to Paco ?? or any of the other atlist 70 guitarists.
I have heard Juan Martin and i have heard the other atlist 70 guitarists and i think i made a pretty fair decision based on what i have heard, nothing to do with where hes from , or whatever.
Is there a track of his that i missed ? mibe u could give me the name so i can see what i might have overlooked
Ps. sorry about beeing so blunt today, i am a litlle tired, i might wake up tomarow and be embarassed by my bluntness and edit the post.
but if i do remember it as it is tonight because is 100% how i feel i would only be changing it to keep the peace and not make waves.
Torrente del alma and Ritmeo y taconeo (dunno if they're splet right) are pretty good pieces of the album i mentioned.(the alchemist-el alquemista)
as i said its all down to personal taste, ps that list is fairly long and with alot of good artists and i would'nt dream of saying one is better than the other or one person is the best overall.
según algunas personas Sabicas era el rey de la guitarra en su tiempo pero Paco es el rey para ahora.
i still think of them as great artists in their own right.
i would'nt say their is any piece i dislike strongly, it's just some pieces dont have any spark, crunch bite to them for me that is. however, i got the almoraima album last week in hmv, and i like alot of the tracks including almoraima (bulerias) and plaza alta(solea),
im just not really fascinated by the flute, and fretless bass to name a few of the more modern elements that have become integrated to "his sound".
maybe i approached the man wrong by listening to his modern material and only beginning to listen to his original stuff.
id like to see the man go back and do an album with just him, palmas and cante.with non of the "modern" fluff. i think we all would like this.
i mean that tv appearence with him and camaron playing por bulerias is just magic.
I am sorry if i sounded a bit harsh on Juan, i think hes made a gerate contribuition to learning guitar, i have absoluteley no problem with what Juan does, or think hes a froad or question his dedication to flamenco.
It always surprises me when there are hundreds of brilliant new cds from new guitarists at flamenco world but yes is almost allways the same names that come up here, Paco Pena and Juan Martin, beginners who dont know anybetter not having heard anything else might get confused into thinking that this guys are the best when all they are is really good at bussines and marketing overseas..
They are good guitarists and they have they'r place in flamenco but they are nowhere near the top of the ladder. IMO
my post is not about beeing disrespectfull to flamenco history (because thats exactly what this guys are) but its about beeing respectfull to the acctual scene now and the hundreds of great guitarists doing it now. respect the history but keep your eyes on the present everynow and then too.. Is like the presnt guitarists shouldnt even bother anymore because we all just have our minds made up what flamenco should be and sound like and we like nothing else.
ie the ladder bit sounds a bit kinda superlative.it seems like in the flamenco world everyone is vying for what is the truth but the truth is relative to everyones taste.
its like me saying john frusciante is better than vai, or malmsteen or page or any of the other rock gods around, they all have their own sound. i would say that more of the people in your list would be appreciated more if they toured outside spain and the continent more.
my listening list in no particuliar order includes: thats a broad spectrum.and its mainly hampered by the fact i cannot afford cds on a regular basis and finding something like moaraito or el nino miguel in hmv or music megastore is nigh on impossible.
cante aurora vargas sara vargas manolo caracol terremote de jerez la nina de los peines pepe de la matrona potito camaron jose merce
guitar paco de lucia tomatito Sabicas chicuelo nino ricardo pedro bacan. juan martin. paco pena
its like me saying john frusciante is better than vai, or malmsteen or page or any of the other rock gods around, they all have their own sound.
that applies to the acctual music yes, taste is free, music is subjectable
but talking about technique, musicallity, dificulty of the piece thats not subjective, good technique is good technique.
the fact the Paco scales are faster, cleaner and harder than any of the 2 guitarists is not subjective, i think its safe to say its a fact.
Pacos pieces are more difficult to perform, again not subjective but a fact.
Pacos, music, alot more harmonically sophisticated, WAY WAY more, (mibe subjective, but i doubt it)
Finally yes all it matters is the music u like or not and that is your free choice and right, but there is a difference in the skills of the guitarists witch are not subjective they are facts.
quote:
my listening list in no particuliar order includes: thats a broad spectrum.and its mainly hampered by the fact i cannot afford cds on a regular basis and finding something like moaraito or el nino miguel in hmv or music megastore is nigh on impossible
thats exactly my point, this is why u think this guys are the best, because by the looks of it u have a handfull of guitar cds and its hard to find good flamenco cds in stores. But u can always find Paco Pena and Martin. How could u possiblly judge a movie when you have only seen the previews.
its like me saying john frusciante is better than vai, or malmsteen or page or any of the other rock gods around, they all have their own sound.
that applies to the acctual music yes, taste is free, music is subjectable
but talking about technique, musicallity, dificulty of the piece thats not subjective, good technique is good technique.
the fact the Paco scales are faster, cleaner and harder than any of the 2 guitarists is not subjective, i think its safe to say its a fact.
I agree but it goes much, much deeper than just technique IMO. PDL's contribution to flamenco as a living art form today is not really something thats debateable. Its like debating what kind of impact Segovia had on the classical guitar. PDL changed the landscape, whether you are a fan of his music or not.
PDL is a household name for most flamencos, whereas most would say 'Juan who?'
Again, not wishing to be disrespectful (see my earlier post).
All the discussions about who is the flamenco guitar master and what is flamenco and what is not flamenco and all the subjective individual ratings and ladders and if its authentic or not or makes me a bit tired in the last weeks.
Isnt it like discussing in a bar about professional footbal-strategies or discussing about the ethics in stemcell research? The fact is: Most of the people (99,9%) dont really know what they are talking about. They just catched here and there some subjective statements of othe people who heared here and there some subjective statements and they think they know how all belongs together. But they dont know just 0,1%.. So.., talking about personal tastes is ok. But talking some players down under the ground or raising some players above all other players only coz they released some CDs or got some good "subjective" critics in journals, isnt right in my opinion. There are so many players in the whole world who didnt released a cd and are complete unknown but they are as good as paco or his fellows. Trust me. Every year they vote for miss germany, miss brazil and so on (not the unknown super-guitarrists...ok? Just some magazines or TV shows.). And some pepole are so perky to vote the best looking woman on the world. tststs... Thats totally crap! Coz our girlfriends are the best looking women in the whole universe! Isnt it like that? Just personal subjective individual taste. There are things in the universe which isnt able to put it in rated mathematical categories.
I realize many people love this guitarists music and thats cool, i like some Paco Pena tracks myself, i am not saying theyr music is crap, what the best music is (is subjective).
Is just the skills of the guitarist witch are not subjective.
thats exactly my point, this is why u think this guys are the best, because by the looks of it u have a handfull of guitar cds and its hard to find good flamenco cds in stores. But u can always find Paco Pena and Martin. How could u possiblly judge a movie when you have only seen the previews.
this is the number of guitarist's albums i have for each artist: so i dont think im starved of flamenco guitar -and i kinda worked out ive' spent more than 250€ on this cd colletion. yikes
paco de lucia *5albums tomatito*3albums Sabicas*5 albums chicuelo*1 album nino ricardo*4 albums pedro bacan*3 albums juan martin*1 album paco pena*2 albums gerardo nunez*2
technically speaking, most people would give there right testes to have pacos technique, but id say the same of sabicas, tomatito, nino ricardo or gerardo nunez.these guys had/have got skills.
if you speak of techniques, everyone has their niches, ie. tomatitos pulgar, sabicas' arrepegio and tremol scales, nino ricardos pulgar-ragueado tech.
This reminds me of the Eagles website. The Eagles are a football team based in PHiladelphia, Pennsylvania, USA that I have followed since I was a kid. Although they have been one of the most successful franchises over the last 5-6 years, you have literally hundreds of fans coming on the forum to badmouth them or criticize them. It's just appalling how ignorant these people are, yet their opinions are so strong!
It's kind of like flamenco...or politics...or religion..or...uh, geez I guess everything. That probably doesn't make any sense, does it.
this is the number of guitarist's albums i have for each artist: so i dont think im starved of flamenco guitar -and i kinda worked out ive' spent more than 250€ on this cd colletion. yikes
paco de lucia *5albums tomatito*3albums Sabicas*5 albums chicuelo*1 album nino ricardo*4 albums pedro bacan*3 albums juan martin*1 album paco pena*2 albums gerardo nunez*2
Thats nothing. I have about 30 Paco De Lucia albums (literally). Only 2 Juan Martin ones though...
people tell me to buy zyryab, sirroco and fuente y caudal after im next.
what would you recommend fom the 3?
Thats a tough one... can I choose ALL 3?! well, if I had to pick, it'd probably Siroco. Although Fuente Y Caudal is good too. But if you like the "old-school" sound then go for "Fabulosa Guitarra de PDL" and "Fantasia Flamenca", I like those a lot. Or if you like Cante, try the one with Camaron: "El Camaron De La Isla/Con colaboracion..."
But I think there is something worth hearing on most PDL albums.
why Paco hasn't done as much to expand the horizons of flamenco music
Hmmm...
quote:
[unlike Paco?] Juan not only accepts the idea of flamenco as a way of life, but has studied the culture to such a degree
Uh huh...
quote:
I've yet to hear something from him that has the same level of musical sensitivity
... soooomebody's been hittin' the pipe one time too many
Seriously though, they both have their place. I don't think I'll be writing anything new here:
I'm not at all against respect to Juan for his contributions, but more against the negative comparison with Paco. It doesn't really make me angry nor do I take it personally somehow, I just think it's a bunch of hooey. Listen to a Rondena from the man, for God's sake! Tell me there's no musical sensitivity in there! Hasn't he not only studied the flamenco culture but much more was in it and at many times right in the center of it?
How can you on the one hand talk positively about being a purist (or not) and on the other talk positively about expanding horizons (or not)? Sometimes I think it's fun to listen to an Elvis song in a bar every once in a while, but imagine if the rock movement had stopped there! There'd be no Britney Spears, no Creed And if non-flamencos are baffled by anything other than the same old thing Montoya played almost a hundred years ago... geez... free your mind, man! <leaves room>
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What place has Ottmar? Is he a goldfish? Or the GK, are they Rumba-cats? 
yikes 
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