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She created nothing lasting, nothing that future generations will consider worthy, and she alone was responsible for her lack of discipline that led to her demise. The Establishment's "upside-down values" (if I read you correctly) had nothing to do with Amy Winehouse's problems. She alone bears responsibility.
She had one of those unusual instruments as a singer that only comes along every once in a while. There was nothing manufactured about her singing. At first I thought she was a Billy Holliday clone or intentionally imitated her and others of that generation, then I listened again and found she had a distinctive and natural voice.
Her instrument honestly reminds me of other singers who were not self destructive, but sang in other forms. The great soprano Leontyne Price comes to mind, not because they are similar instruments, but because of the ease with which they both sang and could communicate. Had that girl lived she could have grown into one of the great voices of music.
I absolutely stand by my assertion that she, and she alone, was responsible for the (I would say deliberate) lack of discipline that led to her destructive behavior and eventual demise.
As to my comment that she created nothing of lasting value (emphasis on "lasting"), I realize that is a value judgment, and very much a subjective point of view. Nevertheless, let's see if people are still talking about Amy Winehouse's music 30 years from now, the way they still talk about, and study, Billie Holliday, Big Bill Broonzy, Blind Willie McTell, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, Leadbelly, Woody Guthrie, and many others who did create music of lasting value.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
A quote from a dear friend of mine who lost his son to addiction:
NO ONE has being an addict as their goal or intention and NO ONE hopes their addictions will kill them early. Addiction is a mental and public health problem. Many of us (including my family) have lost children to addiction.
Quote from Tony Bennett:
"Amy Winehouse was an artist of immense proportions and I am deeply saddened to learn of her tragic passing. She was an extraordinary musician with a rare intuition as a vocalist and I am truly devastated that her exceptional talent has come to such an early end.
She was a lovely and intelligent person and when we recorded together she gave a soulful and extraordinary performance. I was honoured to have the opportunity to sing with her.
It had been my sincere hope that she would be able to overcome the issues she was battling and I send my deepest sympathy to her father Mitchell, her entire family and all of those who loved her."
When I first heard her I did not want to admit she could sing. Then I realized what an instrument she had and I thought fukc me, that's awesome.
Sometimes it's not about whether a person becomes a great in the canonic sense of being listed as a who's who, but whether what they had was rare. She had what Elvis had in terms of an instrument, and what Sinatra wished he had. And both Elvis and Sinatra were self destructive, and Sinatra was a manipulative bastard to boot.
Billie Holliday used to get so fukced up on heroin she had to have two men carry her out on stage to the microphone. She did exactly the same thing Amy Winehouse did, only she was and we were lucky enough that she did not overdose until much later. If You Tube was available during Holliday's life she would have had the chance to have been humiliated by her failures and addiction being put in front of the whole world too. Bille Holliday nodded off on stage many times and she was often too fukced up or sick to leave her dressing room. Yet she is one of the great voices.
That girl had a rare and unusual gift, she just could not take care of herself. I was always pulling for her that she would grow out of it.
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH As to my comment that she created nothing of lasting value (emphasis on "lasting"), I realize that is a value judgment, and very much a subjective point of view. Nevertheless, let's see if people are still talking about Amy Winehouse's music 30 years from now, the way they still talk about, and study, Billie Holliday, Big Bill Broonzy, Blind Willie McTell, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, Leadbelly, Woody Guthrie, and many others who did create music of lasting value.
I havent heard of half of the names, as im sure many of my generation havent (talk about lasting values :D), and yes it is just a personal judgement that only music that lasts 30 years would be valuable. According to your statement we would only have to measure the age of a piece of music to appreciate its value. There have been many attempts to define "good music", but in the end, i have NEVER come across of one which was not purely based on somebody's tastes, ie subjective, ie useless to make a generally true statement.
I havent heard of half of the names, as im sure many of my generation havent
Thanks to modern radio for that... who's idea of "oldies" is playing the same 25 songs over... and over... and over... lessee... there's The Eagles, there's Journey... and Lynard Skynard.... about 4 from each.... the same 4... over.. and over... Oh, yes- let's not forget Billy Joel's "Piano Man"... and the blind listening public listens to it over... and over... and over... and thinks they know music. However, in actuality, the truth be told- The Eagles, Lynrd Skynard, Journey, and Billy Joel (and others) had some great tunes... but never mind, the radio stations play the same ones.. over... and over... Wes
You may not have heard of the names... but you've heard the music... if you've listened to Elvis Presley, The Beatles, Carl Perkins, Chuck Berry, The Rolling Stones, Led Zepplin The Allman Brothers, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Janice Joplin and many others. They've all been influenced- and performed music by Leadbelly, Ma Rainey, Blind Willy McTell, Big Bill Broonzy and more. Remember "Going Up The Country"- by Canned Heat- in the '60's- with the unmistakable flute hook line??? The flute line and lyrics lifted directly off the 1920's recording of Bull Doze Blues. Don't remember it? See if this sounds familar: Which simply proves- all these people you've never heard of? Their music DID last. Oh... and then there's these guys named Beethoven... Brahms... Listz... etc... Wes
That you haven't heard of half the names in my previous post says a lot more about your narrow approach to music than it does about the musicians mentioned, all of whom were, and are, very well known in their respective fields: Blues, R & B, folk, big band, etc.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
That you haven't heard of half the names in my previous post says a lot more about your narrow approach to music than it does about the musicians mentioned, all of whom were, and are, very well known in their respective fields: Blues, R & B, folk, big band, etc.
A bit arrogant, ya think. I am sure many in this forum can name well known musicians in their respective genres that you may not be aware of and they probably would not come off as so "effing" arrogant!
I've definitely heard of all the names on that list but a lot of people on this forum are not American and thus probably have less exposure to our canonized list of great folk/blues/jazz artists (especially from previous generations). How many Americans can name even one Flamenco singer?
In every generation there have been people that crapped on new music and insisted that it had "no lasting value". It was just as true in Elvis's time, or Camarón's time, as it is in the time of artists like Eminem, Beyonce, Amy Winehouse, etc
No more arrogant than his suggestion that because he had not heard of half the musicians mentioned, they had not created music of lasting value. In other words, he implied that if he had not heard of it, it was of no lasting value. Now that's what I call arrogance!
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
In every generation there have been people that crapped on new music and insisted that it had "no lasting value". It was just as true in Elvis's time, or Camarón's time, as it is in the time of artists like Eminem, Beyonce, Amy Winehouse, etc
Couldn't agree more! Nevertheless, the question is, did Amy Winehouse create music of lasting value? I have already given my opinion on that, and I emphasized that it is my opinion. But whatever opinion you or I or anyone else might have, it is far to soon to come to a definitive conclusion. That will only come many years from now.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
but a lot of people on this forum are not American and thus probably have less exposure to our canonized list of great folk/blues/jazz artists (especially from previous generations).
Again, this is wrong! The truth is, while these people we're discussing recorded in the '20's and '30's, and were re-discovered in the '60's, their big fame came when Europe discovered them! Folks such as Big Bill Broonzy, Browny McGhee, Skip James, Bukka White and other early American blues artists were flown to Europe each year to do festival tours, which is how many of the white electric blues stars of the late 60s got turned on to the whole thing. In Europe, these black blues artists became superstars on tour over there, gaining much more fame and adoration than they did in their own home country! Just like everyone thought that part of the reason that Jimi Hendrix was so amazing was that he played a right-handed guitar backwards and upside down. Simple reason was that right handed guitars were much scarcer when he was growing up- so learned to do it backwards- which, if you think about it, learning how to make a C chord one way is no more difficult than any other way. You learn it how you learn it. Just like people like Elizabeth Cotten did decades before him when left-handed guitars didn't even exist! She started learning to play backwards and upside down before 1905!
In every generation there have been people that crapped on new music and insisted that it had "no lasting value". It was just as true in Elvis's time, or Camarón's time
I was trying to get at that. Sometimes people listen to old stuff and think it's better because it's old, tried and true. Well it is, and it isn't. For example, we still have to listen to a lot of crappy classical music that is mediocre simply because it's classical.
If you think of Beethoven, there's the Egmont Overture or Pachelbel ( yikes!) the Canon D. Fogetaboutit. The Egmont is a beginner Beethoven piece, it's graspable just about anyone can get it. The Canon in D same thing, it's not a challenging work, yet every Christmas season it gets dragged out and you hear it and you want to take heavy sedatives to keep from going mad if you're caught in an elevator or grocery store line with this piece of crap in your ear.
Beethoven has the other side, the Grosse Fuge or the Seventh Symphony or some of other later string quartets. Difficult stuff, worth the work to listen to it. At the time the publisher of the string quartets asked Beethoven to write another movement to the string quartet that ended with the movement he called the Grosse Fuge, Stravinsky said it's one of the most timeless pieces ever written. How many people listen to it?
You have to keep evaluating and listen, you can't just rely on labels and the canon of what's good. There's a lot that is not good. I read were Kieth Richards said he would make album and it would get panned then three yeas later make another album and critics would complain it was not as good as the one they hated three years earlier. The reason is because the critics had to spend enough time with it to understand what they were doing. Change is difficult and people resist.
I once had a music teacher who said if a guy tells me he knows what he likes, it really means he likes what he knows.
You are absolutely correct, Stephen, and your example of Beethoven is spot on. Nevertheless, your example of Beethoven highlights the nub of the matter. The question is not whether every piece of work a musician or composer creates is of lasting value. As long as a musician or composer creates some works that are considered of lasting value, he fits the description. I think we can all agree that Beethoven has created sublime works. He also has created some that are not. But those that are sublime have come down to us and are recognized as works of lasting value.
The same could be said of everyone I mentioned, or that anyone else may have on his list. Sinatra sang some great songs that will be listened to after you and I are gone. He also recorded some mediocre stuff. That does not detract from the great recordings. I can listen to Big Bill Broonzy or Blind Willie McTell, and some of their stuff is mediocre (in my opinion), but the really good pieces are very good indeed! They will be listened to long after we have departed this Earth.
I guess what it comes down to, at least in this thread, is the question: Is Amy Winehouse in that league? In my opinion she is not, but when the history of today's music is written 30 years from now, I may be proven wrong.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
My point about her is not so much about whether she wrote or sang any songs that will last, but that she had a truly great instrument and that is rare. My comparison to Leontyne Price might be a stretch, but Leontyne Price will be remembered not for being a writer of songs on the order of Verdi. But that she has a glorious instrument and sings naturally in a world where there is an ever increasing need for gimmickry and artifice in vocalists in order to make it commercially.
There is music made to be played there there are musicians who interpret, she did some of both, but whenever she opened her mouth I was astounded at the way her head vibrated, the same way I'm astounded that Agujetas' head vibrates or Leontyne Price's head vibrates. Not everyone's head and body vibrates that way.
That you haven't heard of half the names in my previous post says a lot more about your narrow approach to music than it does about the musicians mentioned, all of whom were, and are, very well known in their respective fields: Blues, R & B, folk, big band, etc.
Cheers,
Bill
I guess my point was, and which you failed to notice, that music cannot be categorized and "valued" as you did. You say it showed my "narrow approach" but in fact you are just defining whats "narrow", which is - surprise - not knowing the ones musicians **you** know. I could likewise state the same point as im pretty sure i could kill you with a list of musicians you dont know about. So the person who knows more musicians than anybody would win this game. This is just as childish as your statement that the age of a music on earth would have something to do with its value.
quote:
But whatever opinion you or I or anyone else might have, it is far to soon to come to a definitive conclusion. That will only come many years from now.
BS. Amy Winehous's (or anybody's) music's value doesnt change with time or followers. It has a value the moment its created. It is a finished piece, with a definite expression. Nothing changes there, unless you re-record it or re-play it on the stage. What changes is the appreciation of it by folks with time, yes. With a statement like "the appreciation of folks determines its value" i would be very very very very cautious though. You might end up liking music that you actually dont like. Because everybody knows underrated musicians as well as overrated musicians, a statement like that above must be BS. Music or musicians who dont record, or dont have the mass attention, will not last, no matter how good they are.
[quote i don't believe that its possible that there was no peer pressure aiding her demise [/quote]
You may be correct, Kikkoman, but she, like all of us, had the choice to succomb to peer pressre or resist it. It was still her choice.
Cheers,
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Nice that you consider anybody's opinion with which you disagree "BS," Deniz. So much for tolerance for differing opinions.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I never claimed to be tolerant towards any opinions (no matter if i agree to them or not)? Besides i mean come on... she just died and you are posting about how responsible she is and that you dont think her music is of value. Thats BS too.
Bill do you think camaron's death was due to his own follies?
Bill, I would really like to see your reply to this. According to your own logic, if you had more sympathy for Camaron it would imply that you value his life more only because he was a more successful or talented artist.
I must say I usually avoid these cluster*** arguments but like Deniz I find your criticism of a troubled person that just passed away quite, repulsive. You make it sound like she made the choice to die. People make bad decisions, some can potentially lead to death and some don't. A lot of people start smoking cigarettes because of peer pressure some start doing more serious drugs yet crystal meth is clearly more dangerous than cigarettes. It doesn't mean that anyone in either group *deserves* to die.
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
It doesn't mean that anyone in either group *deserves* to die.
I never said, and I don't believe, anyone "deserves" to die, N. Read my posts carefully. I simply stated that I think she was responsible for the lack of discipline that led to her destructive behavior and eventual demise. I do believe in the value of being personally responsible for one's own actions. If you do not, then fine; that is your perogative. I do.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I never said, and I don't believe, anyone "deserves" to die, N. Read my posts carefully. I simply stated that I think she was responsible for the lack of discipline that led to her destructive behavior and eventual demise. I do believe in the value of being personally responsible for one's own actions. If you do not, then fine; that is your perogative. I do.
Responsible? Yes, I think that really that goes without saying. However, taken in context with everything else that you've said about her not having produced anything of value, a reasonable person might think that you associate talent with the value of a human life. That's why the original question asked regarding Camaron is particularly relevant.
I absolutely stand by my assertion that she, and she alone, was responsible for the (I would say deliberate) lack of discipline that led to her destructive behavior and eventual demise
Lacking in discipline? ... who isn't sometimes? ..but thankfully not always with disastrous consequences. Suggest you get yourself educated about addiction.
A mother's daughter ...a father's daughter .. great singer and songwriter with unique voice .. sadly missed
a reasonable person might think that you associate talent with the value of a human life. That's why the original question asked regarding Camaron is particularly relevant.
Nothing I have said would lead any reasonable person to think I asociate talent with the value of a human life. Life has value in and of itself, regardless of talent or lack thereof. If one chooses to engage in destructive behavior that leads to one's demise, that is one's choice, and it says something about how one views the value of one's own life. Life, in and of itself, is just as valuable in the case of Winehouse as it is in the case of Camaron. What I think you fail to grasp is that apart from how a person lives or dies, it is perfectly appropriate to have an opinion about that person's talent. It does not matter whether or not you or I think Camaron had talent, just as it does not matter whether or not you or I think Winehouse had talent. To suggest that commenting on a person's talent is to place a value on that person's life, as you have suggested I have done, is a total non-sequitur.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Suggest you get yourself educated about addiction.
Suggest you not make assumptions about others' education about addiction, or anything else for that matter.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I may have spoken disrespectfully of Amy- and, in retrospect, I regret that
Ah, no worries. I think your initial comment was motivated by a reasonable principle. As I (kind of try to) see it, every loss of human life is sad in a way; but some instances are more tragic than others. It's that latter idea which I think sometimes motivates people to focus on one kind of tragedy (e.g. Norway) and simultaneously discount other tragedies involving the victim's culpability (e.g. Winehouse). They almost always have something in common, though there are some important differences, as well. I think those different concerns motivate some of the different comments on this thread.
quote:
It is, indeed- a very sad world.
In one of his books, Nietzsche asked whether life is ultimately worth living. In effect, he concluded, "No! But art can make it bearable." For some people here I suspect flamenco is one of those things that makes life bearable, if not better.
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