Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
Mario Escudero
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
 RE: Mario Escudero (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
quote:
am glad yet more guys like Bartok and Dvorak didn't understand the point of folk music and its harmony.
Glad African-Americans didn't understand the point of the western classical music.
Glad Be-boppers didn't understand the point of big-band music.
Glad Ozzy and the boys from Zep didn't understand the point of rock.
If they had understood we wouldn't have the NEW WORLD SYMPHONY.
nor the BLUES
nor BE_BOP
nor HEAVY METAL.
What they all understood was that it was a good idea to look at other music to try and make something new within their respective genres or with existing music they already had.
Jazz has had a profound influence direct or indirect. At least the guy presents his info to back up his argument.
If that is not convincing...well.
I read the one you deleted too. Sheesh, all I am saying man is, I mean does that Escudero sound like it is coming from Jazz to YOU???? If so, WHAT jazz???? I am not saying that Escudero and others do not have outside influences, I am just saying that Escudero does not sound Jazzy to me. Most aficionados I would say could hear the CLASSICAL influences but ultimately describe that way of playing as "traditional flamenco guitar". Some hardcore guys might call it "spanish classical" since it is not accompanying cante/rasgueado stuff. But just my opinion anyway, who cares.
The "jazz inspired"chords Escudero is arpegiating are A, Gm, F, F9/Eb, Bb/D, C#dim7, Bb7b5,Bb7/Ab, back to A. Basically, down the chord scale in A phrygian (Except. for F7). Then A, C7/Bb, F/A, C#dim7/G, Dm/F, Em7b5, Bb/D, then down the scale to A. So more from the chord scale. No ii-V-I, or modulations, or sub dominants or substitutions, etc. Just the spanish phrygian mode, like a chord scale exercise.
So the article is basically saying that with this example we can see how the jazz influence is coming into flamenco guitar compostion. I am just saying, I don't "see" it.
Ricardo
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 1 2007 0:31:29
 |
|
Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
|
|
RE: Mario Escudero (in reply to Ramirez)
|
|
|
I have a double lp of solos by Mario recorded for the Musical Heritage Society. It was recorded in 1969 or so. It features a duet with his son on a sevillanas. I also have a book of transcriptions in standard notation by joe trotter, the same guy who did the Flamenco puro book of sabicas music. The book includes a note for note version of Montoya's rondena, so I guess Mario recorded at least one Ramon number.
I have to go with Ricardo in that I don't hear any jazz in Impetu. Of course, that doesn't mean he couldn't have been inspired by some jazz he heard, but I don't hear it. In fact, I take the opposite view of Romerito in that I think the influence of jazz on modern flamenco is often overstated. To me, jazz is defined by the 32 bar song form, the II V I progression, and the players way of improvising solos over the form, which is really not part of flamenco. Of course players have been influenced by jazz, as they have said, but the defining elements of the music seem incompatible with what I identify as flamenco, as least so far. I think the day is coming when a flamenco guy will be ripping solos over true jazz progressions, modulating, and still managing to sound flamenco. Maybe it's already happened, I just haven't heard about it. Tres Notas is heading in that direction, I think. Anyone have any more examples?
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 1 2007 2:51:55
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Mario Escudero (in reply to Guest)
|
|
|
quote:
Look man. No offense. I just read the part that said
quote:
Sorry but it sounds like yet another guy who does not understand the point of jazz harmony.
and thought it was unfair.
Hey no disrespect, I did not mean YOU are one of those guys, I know you know your stuff. More like what Mark was mentioning when you hear a fancy chord and then aficionados say "that is a jazzy chord" when really it is the WAY it is played that is "jazzy" not the chord itself. Modern flamenco is not defined by jazzy stuff going on, but many take that as a base since they have no clue. IMO an old timer traditionalist flamenco player could hear a modern flamenco guitar falseta and figure out the proper fingering, the "grips" as ToddK once put it. Whereas, even if the falseta is inspired by some modern jazz, the best modern jazz player would not come close to the proper fingerings for the thing. I hope you get what I am trying to say.
As far as the real hard evidence for "jazz" music coming into flamenco, sure there are tons of examples. But I don't thing that has anything to do with the specific EVOLUTION of flamenco from old school to modern, at least when speaking generally about flamenco guitar overall.
I mean, you have Carlos Montoya doing Saint Louis to Seville with a jazz combo. You have Juan Serrano interpret "Autumn Leaves" por bulerias. Is that Jazzy? Well OF COURSE! Is that evolving or a sign of modern flamenco trends? Well, when you hear it you know of course not, it is very old style playing. And those were fusions. What jazz ideas came out of those fusions where nothing like modern players use nowadays, or what folks seem to thing defines "jazzy" style flamenco. But then lets look at modern players. Paco, Nunez, tomatito. they have all borrowed direct from jazz at times, for example ii V I movements I mention before. But so brief and just like "thrown in" to a falseta, not at all the way it is used in jazz. more like a classical style 'impression" of the ii V I in jazz. Falsetas are little compositions. And of course the stealing of melodies like conrad found the Garberek piece Paco stole for Tangos. But that is more like "world music" to me. That is not from a typical jazz head, that is a special tune. Even Miles Davis was inspired by flamenco and to turn it around and say that anything from that or Chick Corea's "Spain" is a "jazz influence" on flamenco guitar is like a dog biting his tail.
Anyway we can go on and on. My point is that this guy in the article had specific examples yet made generalized comments about it. I prefer specifics. And sure there are specific "jazz influence on flamenco" examples to be found, and plenty of deliberate fusions.
Ricardo
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 2 2007 7:32:11
|
|
zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
|
|
RE: Mario Escudero (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
The "jazz inspired"chords Escudero is arpegiating are A, Gm, F, F9/Eb, Bb/D, C#dim7, Bb7b5,Bb7/Ab, back to A.
You have to consider the context. I was studying with Escudero in the sixties, and I remember how he showed me the barred Gm we all consider standard today. He told me before-hand he was going to show me a very special ultra-modern chord people were starting to use in Spain. The position was known previously, but no one had capitalized on it, and it wasn't used to accompany certain styles of tientos or tangos that we now consider to require it ("Inmediato..." for example). Since no solea or siguiriyas goes to that tonality, no one seemed to miss Gm...until Paco and Camarón began to use it almost obsessively. And then the definitive Gm statement: the Almoraima alzapúa.
If you take this into consideration, chords like C#dim7 seem thoroughly exotic by comparison.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jul. 3 2007 1:05:50
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.0625 secs.
|
Printable Version
