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RE: Mario Escudero
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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 RE: Mario Escudero (in reply to Guest)
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Hi Romerito:
Believe it or not I meant a simple E position on the third fret. That was the sound that caused a revolution in the early seventies and it seemed like every new flamencoey song dwelled (dwelt?) on it. There were even a couple of attempts to use true Dorian (Dm-G) since it highlighted a minor chord in a flamenco-sounding context, in other words, without sounding like farruca. I say “true” Dorian, because in Spain the terms Dorian and Phrygian are considered synonymous, I don’t know if elsewhere this is the case Needless to say, the scale was too strange for anything to come of it in the mainstream, with the glaring exception of the hit rumba “A Chili Bum”.
As far as jazz broadening the palette... Obviously this is true. The big question is: does the palette still have a flamenco color? (Get it?...painter’s palette?...color? :-). Those of us of a certain age find that each extended chord subtracts from the specific gravity that seems essential to flamenco...Fernanda had gravity, Sade has wafting bouyancy. I wouldn’t want to listen to Fernanda as mood music in a hip piano bar, the sound is simply too unsettling, demanding, aggressive. Nor do I like to hear the cool hip sound of jazz when I’ve got a flamenco-on.
Younger guitarists are loathe to give up their contemporary harmonies, and there’s no reason why they should do so. However, it seems unquestionable that the very identity of “flamenco” is heading for the great ocean of pop music where, by definition, it will eventually no longer have the “color” that made it world-famous in the first place. No one needs to come to Spain to hear a Spanish or Andalusian take on what everyone else in the western world is doing.
My generation would like to see a distinction or separation: “this is flamenco”, “this is something else”. The younger generation balks at the concept and aggressively advocates the idea that flamenco has become something else, and it’s time to leave the past behind. This is the only true impasse.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Jul. 3 2007 10:25:59
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Mario Escudero (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
That E pos on third fret...do you play with barre and both 3rd and 4th fingers or just 3rd finger? One is minor, the other is more modern, minor 7th.
May I ask your generation?
I meant Em position, barred on the third fret, with 3rd and 4th fingers. It substitutes for Bb, I'm sure someone can give a proper musician's description.
The thing is, certain melodies descend to G in a certain way that begs for Gm, and when Bb is played, it sounds off. For decades, fine accompanists waffled over such moments, or played very softly. When Paco taught us to use Gm, it was like when you really have to pee, but there's no toilet, but then you finally find one.
My generation is I just turned 60, but am struggling to conceal the fact that I have the mind of a 14-year-old.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Jul. 3 2007 11:16:24
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Ricardo
Posts: 14880
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Mario Escudero (in reply to Guest)
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I would venture to ask Zata's opinion about "Impetu" specifically, if she consider's her teachers composition to be traditional flamenco guitar? She already pointed out that his chords were "exotic" for the time, I would not disagree. The issue I had was if they were "jazz inspired". 
Regarding the modal rumba. If it is the same A Chili bum I find myself and friend jamming on in juergas, it is not a Dorian Vamp, it would be considered Aeolian. AT least when you take into account the melody AND the chords. (Am-G). More famous is Paco's Buana Buana King Kong. But maybe we mean a different type of rumba jam.
Dm-G IS Dorian more like that tune by Ketama. Toma ketama something or other. Similar to Oye como Va by Santana. Another famous modal vamp is Caballo Negro by Sanlucar. That is mixolydian.
Sanlucar is a good example of a guy doing very Modern flamenco, like on Tauromagia, but not doing any jazzy stuff. In fact it was specifically mentioned before that Sanlucar talked about the importance of modes in flamenco rather than modulating harmonies. To me, pure modality, like more traditional Rondenas for guitar, or siguiryas for cante, is the "color" Zata is refereing too. Not any borrowing from other keys, very sweet and pure modality. I would tend to agree that the more borrowing and modulating done, them more the ear loses the cadence and tonic.
Ricardo
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Date Jul. 3 2007 23:01:26
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Mario Escudero (in reply to Ricardo)
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>> Gm7 would not be any more "modern"than Gm barre, since it (Gm7)
is in Escudero's "Impetu", and it also appears that he was one of the
first to ever use in the "por medio"key. <<
Sevenths are always more modern, in flamenco at least. Before Paco, you learned falsetas from a teacher, and used them accompanying, or built your own solos, no one was teaching whole compositions. Escudero was ahead of his time, and incorporated contemporary harmonies in his solos that he didn’t use in accompanying. You’re probably right about Gm7, but the barred Gm had been used before as a passing chord, especially in falsetas, though never as a substitute for Bb in cante accompaniment, partly because there are no styles of soleá or siguiriya that have the peculiar descent to G that is so enhanced by Gm (it’s hard to go back to Bb once you’e heard how “right” the Gm sounds). With rare exceptions, it’s newer styles of tangos and bulerías that benefit most from the use of this chord/position.
>> I would venture to ask Zata's opinion about "Impetu"specifically, if
she consider's her teachers composition to be traditional flamenco
guitar? She already pointed out that his chords were "exotic"for the
time, I would not disagree. The issue I had was if they were "jazz
inspired". <<
I’m not qualified to talk about jazz in any academic way, and can only say when something “feels” like jazz to me. Impetu is amalgamated phrygian...it doesn’t get much more flamenco than that, despite some novel harmonies.
>> Regarding the modal rumba. If it is the same A Chili bum I find
myself and friend jamming on in juergas, it is not a Dorian Vamp,
it would be considered Aeolian. AT least when you take into
account the melody AND the chords. (Am-G). More famous
is Paco's Buana Buana King Kong. But maybe we mean a
ifferent type of rumba jam. Dm-G IS Dorian more like that
tune by Ketama. Toma ketama something or other. Similar
to Oye como Va by Santana. Another famous modal vamp
is Caballo Negro by Sanlucar. That is mixolydian. <<
I have no idea what scale is the Aeolian, but years ago someone told me A Chili Bum was Dorian, and since the sound is so distinctive, the label stuck. Buana Buana King Kong (I bet some people reading this think we’re kidding about the title) is clearly (to my ears) the same scale. As I mentioned before, there’s also a rumba by Arte4 called Mari Tere in the same scale. Caballo Negro is another bit I hadn’t considered (I can’t contemplate Caballo Negro without hearing Niño Miguel’s “Vals Flamenco” in my head...Niño Miguel became famous overnight thanks to his Vals, and a couple of months later, Sanlúcar surfaced with Caballo, vastly inferior IMO).
>> Sanlucar is a good example of a guy doing very Modern flamenco,
like on Tauromagia, but not doing any jazzy stuff. In fact it was
specifically mentioned before that Sanlucar talked about the importance
of modes in flamenco rather than modulating harmonies. To me,
pure modality, like more traditional Rondenas for guitar, or
siguiryas for cante, is the "color"Zata is refereing too. Not any
borrowing from other keys, very sweet and pure modality.
I would tend to agree that the more borrowing and modulating
done, them more the ear loses the cadence and tonic. <<
The deformation of the color of flamenco has been swift but smooth, like removing a beach one grain of sand at a time, but very quickly. There was no point at which you could point and say “that’s where they lost the script”, and yet, here we are, staring at our empty hands wondering how it happened. Son de la Frontera, the group from Morón, makes a point of using only traditional harmony, and have been outrageously successful with rather simple music. I suspect part of the collective ear would like to hear more of those sounds, and let jazz be jazz (that probably sounds closed-minded, but it’s my true belief).
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Jul. 8 2007 10:28:54
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Ricardo
Posts: 14880
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Mario Escudero (in reply to zata)
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quote:
I’m not qualified to talk about jazz in any academic way, and can only say when something “feels” like jazz to me. Impetu is amalgamated phrygian...it doesn’t get much more flamenco than that, despite some novel harmonies.
Great, more or less what I was hoping you'd say. I personally do follow a bit of jazz, and would agree about the phrygian and "novel harmonies". So my original point (back on page 1) was that the guy in the article picking Impetu as an early example of "jazz-inspired" harmonies entering flamenco, would seem off to most afficionados. This does not rule out the possibility that it might have been stolen right off, but I doubt it.
quote:
I have no idea what scale is the Aeolian, but years ago someone told me A Chili Bum was Dorian, and since the sound is so distinctive, the label stuck. Buana Buana King Kong (I bet some people reading this think we’re kidding about the title) is clearly (to my ears) the same scale.
OK, I think we are on the same page. Yeah, in modern western terms, that is not Dorian, it is Aeolian (ABCDEFG or La si do re mi fa sol). Dorian would be DEFGABC, or re mi fa sol la si do. Certain 2 chord progressions that are not tonic dominant V-I (like Alegrias or Farruca) are often called "modal Vamps" that help establish a modal tonic better. I think the reasons certain GREEK MODE terms got mixed up is because mainly of Gregorian church music using the terms incorrectly, and of the way the modes are defined by half(H) or whole steps(W).
For example (WARNING! NERD MODE ACTIVATED) the Western Dorian Scale is WHWWWHW. The Phrygian Scale is HWWWHWW. Ionian major scale is WWHWWWH. But these are defined ASCENDING. The greeks defined modes this way, DESCENDING. So notice Phrygian descending is the same as Ionian ascending. So my theory is when borrowing terms, someone started spelling from the wrong note (not octave to octave, but 7th to octave) and perhaps in the wrong direction. (Spell phrygian backwards from the 7th to tonic, and you have Dorian ascending to the 7th). With Western Dorian, it is symmetrical, both directions look the same. Perhaps that symmetry is why the Church monks loved that mode?? Bach liked it too, even though he was not really a "modal" composer. Look at an original score of his first Violin Suite in G minor. He uses one flat for the key signature, which most westerners think of as the key sig for G DORIAN nowadays.
Ok, i will stop now. Just want to add, there are some modern approaches by flamenco guitarists that retain that sweet modality. For example El Pele with Vicente the Siguiryas is just ONE chord the whole time for the accompaniment. That is modal. Manolo Sanlucar obviously, but remember Vicente was his student. Nuñez too has some cool modal ideas mixed in, especially the way he uses bass notes.
Ricardo
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Date Jul. 9 2007 6:30:30
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