Mario Escudero (Full Version)

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Ramirez -> Mario Escudero (Jun. 28 2007 10:29:11)

It strikes me that Mario's work in '50/60's, alongside Sabicas, really helped propel the popularity of Flamenco guitar - making it a serious contender on the world stage and pushing the boundaries of technique and composition.

He has been responsible for some great concert pieces (PdL himself even thought they were worthy enough to record).


It seems a shame that his work isn't available on CD. Unless, of course, I'm completely wrong. Does anyone know where I can get hold of his music?



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JBASHORUN -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jun. 28 2007 15:22:26)

The best way is to buy yourself a "USB turntable". Then you can buy all of Mario's records/LPs (Ebay is a good place for that) and copy them onto CD. Problem solved.



Jim9guitars -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jun. 29 2007 0:02:29)

I have a few of his LP records, all are in fairly rough shape but listenable, and all are group efforts with lots of singing, other guitarists and palmas. There are a few solos as well but he was a team player. I have managed to hook up my stereo, turntable, cassette deck and all to my computer to make mp3s and/or CDs out of anything I want. Sound quality can be iffy but it works.

Jim



jshelton5040 -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jun. 29 2007 1:17:29)

As you may know Mario Escudero did several recordings with the stage name "Nino de Almaden". His teacher was Ramon Montoya who was a much more impressive and revolutionary guitarist. Most of what Escudero played and a large portion of Sabicas' solos were based on Montoya's music.

Escudero used a Hauser classic guitar for many of his solo recordings.



Ricardo -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jun. 29 2007 4:47:47)

quote:

As you may know Mario Escudero did several recordings with the stage name "Nino de Almaden". His teacher was Ramon Montoya who was a much more impressive and revolutionary guitarist. Most of what Escudero played and a large portion of Sabicas' solos were based on Montoya's music.

Escudero used a Hauser classic guitar for many of his solo recordings.


Montoya was definantly the inspiration for both guys, and they both used some falsetas note for note, but some of Escudero's stuff like "Impetu" was very revolutionary.

Hauser does not seem to make for a great flamenco sound, though the guitar is amazing in its classical tone and construction. The photo I saw of Escudero (Niño de ALICANTE) live he had a Conde like everyone else.

Ricardo



jshelton5040 -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jun. 29 2007 14:57:31)

[/quote]

Montoya was definantly the inspiration for both guys, and they both used some falsetas note for note, but some of Escudero's stuff like "Impetu" was very revolutionary.

Hauser does not seem to make for a great flamenco sound, though the guitar is amazing in its classical tone and construction. The photo I saw of Escudero (Niño de ALICANTE) live he had a Conde like everyone else.

Ricardo
[/quote]

You're right Ricardo. I got the names mixed up. Nino de Almaden was the name of the cantaor that he accompanied on his last album which was not very good. I used to have a solo LP of him with his picture on the cover holding the famous Hauser. Although the playing was ok I thought the sound was poor. I converted all the LP's to cd years ago and gave them away so I probably still have the recording somewhere. It's not one I cherish.



vasileos -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jun. 29 2007 22:04:34)

Here's a link to an interesting article about the evolution of Flamenco Guitar and the influence by Escudero, Montoya, Sabicas, Nino Ricardo and Paco. Interesting text and guitar examples. Food for thought.

http://www.mindspring.com/~lv-flamenco/style.html



jshelton5040 -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jun. 29 2007 23:33:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vasileos

Here's a link to an interesting article about the evolution of Flamenco Guitar and the influence by Escudero, Montoya, Sabicas, Nino Ricardo and Paco. Interesting text and guitar examples. Food for thought.

http://www.mindspring.com/~lv-flamenco/style.html

Sorry, but as soon as I read this:

"Ricardo was firmly based in the same two predecessors as Sabicas, and his style was remarkably similar to Sabicas."

I lost interest in continuing. To my ear Sabicas and Nino Ricardo have nothing in common. Both were masters but had totally different styles of playing guitar and I don't hear a lot of Ramon Montoya in Nino Ricardo's playing.



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Ricardo -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jun. 29 2007 23:54:21)

I have heard Sabicas play both Monotoya AND Niño Ricardo falsetas note for note. But of course his SOUND was the thing that one could recognize first as "different" or unique. Partly his technique, and partly the recording technology used. (Sabicas recordings I find to be VERY bright and clear).

Anyway, interesting article. Impetu arps are "jazz-influenced"???? Sorry but it sounds like yet another guy who does not understand the point of jazz harmony. And Impetu is rarely recorded? That is one of the more popular "standards" to perform and record. The thing to really notice is the Escudero vs Paco falseta, obviously who influenced who, but does he mention the synchopation in Paco's version? That is the REAL important distinction in modern vs trad. IMO. Escudero's "swing" is all on the beat, where as Paco is off beats.

Also, Montoya created in a vacuum? Of course not. I read a REAL interesting and revealing article about Montoya's influences. But for another thread OK?
Ricardo



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jun. 30 2007 0:14:19)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jun. 30 2007 6:35:19



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jun. 30 2007 6:44:59)

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guitarbuddha -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jun. 30 2007 17:48:27)

I see this particular harmony as more nineteenth century romantic tradition ( like Paganini or Sor ). Lots of minor tonic/dominant flat ninth stuff and then hammering home the andalucian cadence at key structural points to keep it flamenco.

Bartok definately DID get folk melodies but I certainly agree with the idea that the exploration of other genres can revitalise a composers work on his home turf.

Nunez recorded the Escudero and no Montoya. Maybe he was a little impressed. It is a really challenging piece to play and it is technically very distinct from Paco's own stlye of composition. I would like to see more of Escuderos buleria output and to hear more of it too. I think that it is a direction in playing that has too long been neglected ( although I find that Serranito is a player who is equally distinct and similarly classical in his approach to structure and texture).

Hi to all.

D.



Ricardo -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jul. 1 2007 0:31:29)

quote:

am glad yet more guys like Bartok and Dvorak didn't understand the point of folk music and its harmony.

Glad African-Americans didn't understand the point of the western classical music.

Glad Be-boppers didn't understand the point of big-band music.

Glad Ozzy and the boys from Zep didn't understand the point of rock.

If they had understood we wouldn't have the NEW WORLD SYMPHONY.
nor the BLUES
nor BE_BOP
nor HEAVY METAL.

What they all understood was that it was a good idea to look at other music to try and make something new within their respective genres or with existing music they already had.

Jazz has had a profound influence direct or indirect. At least the guy presents his info to back up his argument.

If that is not convincing...well.


I read the one you deleted too. Sheesh, all I am saying man is, I mean does that Escudero sound like it is coming from Jazz to YOU???? If so, WHAT jazz???? I am not saying that Escudero and others do not have outside influences, I am just saying that Escudero does not sound Jazzy to me. Most aficionados I would say could hear the CLASSICAL influences but ultimately describe that way of playing as "traditional flamenco guitar". Some hardcore guys might call it "spanish classical" since it is not accompanying cante/rasgueado stuff. But just my opinion anyway, who cares.

The "jazz inspired"chords Escudero is arpegiating are A, Gm, F, F9/Eb, Bb/D, C#dim7, Bb7b5,Bb7/Ab, back to A. Basically, down the chord scale in A phrygian (Except. for F7). Then A, C7/Bb, F/A, C#dim7/G, Dm/F, Em7b5, Bb/D, then down the scale to A. So more from the chord scale. No ii-V-I, or modulations, or sub dominants or substitutions, etc. Just the spanish phrygian mode, like a chord scale exercise.

So the article is basically saying that with this example we can see how the jazz influence is coming into flamenco guitar compostion. I am just saying, I don't "see" it.

Ricardo



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Mark2 -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jul. 1 2007 2:51:55)

I have a double lp of solos by Mario recorded for the Musical Heritage Society. It was recorded in 1969 or so. It features a duet with his son on a sevillanas. I also have a book of transcriptions in standard notation by joe trotter, the same guy who did the Flamenco puro book of sabicas music. The book includes a note for note version of Montoya's rondena, so I guess Mario recorded at least one Ramon number.

I have to go with Ricardo in that I don't hear any jazz in Impetu. Of course, that doesn't mean he couldn't have been inspired by some jazz he heard, but I don't hear it. In fact, I take the opposite view of Romerito in that I think the influence of jazz on modern flamenco is often overstated. To me, jazz is defined by the 32 bar song form, the II V I progression, and the players way of improvising solos over the form, which is really not part of flamenco. Of course players have been influenced by jazz, as they have said, but the defining elements of the music seem incompatible with what I identify as flamenco, as least so far. I think the day is coming when a flamenco guy will be ripping solos over true jazz progressions, modulating, and still managing to sound flamenco. Maybe it's already happened, I just haven't heard about it. Tres Notas is heading in that direction, I think. Anyone have any more examples?



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Mark2 -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jul. 1 2007 18:03:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito
It's that there is the possibility that Jazz has had a bigger part in the evolution of modern flamenco than people wish to acknowledge.




Many of us have heard traditionalists , upon hearing a major 7th chord, proclaim, "That's not flamenco, that's jazz"

I think this claim is based on ignorance of what comprises jazz. Without claiming to be an expert in either jazz or flamenco, I do have an opinion. Sorry it makes you assume that I didn't understand what you wrote, or that it upset you. Practicing is good[:D]



XXX -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jul. 1 2007 18:42:39)

quote:

Paco keeps the same phrygian chordal structure, but plays the arpegio as a series of intervals rather than as a full flowing arpegio. This allows him to introduce a very jazzy style synchopation, one of the hallmarks of Paco and the post-Paco generation.


Why is a "jazzy" style synchopation? Is there also a "flamenco style synchopation"??!!



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XXX -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jul. 1 2007 21:15:24)

Romerito, thx, but i didnt want to enter the "how much Jazz is in flamenco" discussion. I just want to know, why the author calls it a "Jazzy" synchopation and not flamenco synchopation, or just synchopation? It would have been cool, if the author had mentioned an example, so that others can understand what a jazzy style snych is. To me this is just a synchopation, and the music been played is flamenco. Flamenco with synchopation.

Paco mentions in his interviews that he was influenced by Brasilian guitar music. But would you really consider Samba a style of JAZZ music??



koella -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jul. 1 2007 21:49:52)

Samba isn't jazz. But people like Carlos Jobim developed a kind of latin-jazz, incorporating samba and bossa.

Jazzy syncopation influenced flamenco. It's a different kind of syncopation as for example van Halen or ZZtop uses.



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Ricardo -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jul. 2 2007 7:32:11)

quote:

Look man. No offense. I just read the part that said
quote:

Sorry but it sounds like yet another guy who does not understand the point of jazz harmony.
and thought it was unfair.


Hey no disrespect, I did not mean YOU are one of those guys, I know you know your stuff. More like what Mark was mentioning when you hear a fancy chord and then aficionados say "that is a jazzy chord" when really it is the WAY it is played that is "jazzy" not the chord itself. Modern flamenco is not defined by jazzy stuff going on, but many take that as a base since they have no clue. IMO an old timer traditionalist flamenco player could hear a modern flamenco guitar falseta and figure out the proper fingering, the "grips" as ToddK once put it. Whereas, even if the falseta is inspired by some modern jazz, the best modern jazz player would not come close to the proper fingerings for the thing. I hope you get what I am trying to say.

As far as the real hard evidence for "jazz" music coming into flamenco, sure there are tons of examples. But I don't thing that has anything to do with the specific EVOLUTION of flamenco from old school to modern, at least when speaking generally about flamenco guitar overall.

I mean, you have Carlos Montoya doing Saint Louis to Seville with a jazz combo. You have Juan Serrano interpret "Autumn Leaves" por bulerias. Is that Jazzy? Well OF COURSE! Is that evolving or a sign of modern flamenco trends? Well, when you hear it you know of course not, it is very old style playing. And those were fusions. What jazz ideas came out of those fusions where nothing like modern players use nowadays, or what folks seem to thing defines "jazzy" style flamenco. But then lets look at modern players. Paco, Nunez, tomatito. they have all borrowed direct from jazz at times, for example ii V I movements I mention before. But so brief and just like "thrown in" to a falseta, not at all the way it is used in jazz. more like a classical style 'impression" of the ii V I in jazz. Falsetas are little compositions. And of course the stealing of melodies like conrad found the Garberek piece Paco stole for Tangos. But that is more like "world music" to me. That is not from a typical jazz head, that is a special tune. Even Miles Davis was inspired by flamenco and to turn it around and say that anything from that or Chick Corea's "Spain" is a "jazz influence" on flamenco guitar is like a dog biting his tail.

Anyway we can go on and on. My point is that this guy in the article had specific examples yet made generalized comments about it. I prefer specifics. And sure there are specific "jazz influence on flamenco" examples to be found, and plenty of deliberate fusions.

Ricardo



zata -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jul. 3 2007 0:54:22)

quote:

As you may know Mario Escudero did several recordings with the stage name "Nino de Almaden".


"Niño de Alicante", Mario was from Alicante. "Niño de Almadén" was a singer...from Almadén.



zata -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jul. 3 2007 1:05:50)

quote:

The "jazz inspired"chords Escudero is arpegiating are A, Gm, F, F9/Eb, Bb/D, C#dim7, Bb7b5,Bb7/Ab, back to A.


You have to consider the context. I was studying with Escudero in the sixties, and I remember how he showed me the barred Gm we all consider standard today. He told me before-hand he was going to show me a very special ultra-modern chord people were starting to use in Spain. The position was known previously, but no one had capitalized on it, and it wasn't used to accompany certain styles of tientos or tangos that we now consider to require it ("Inmediato..." for example). Since no solea or siguiriyas goes to that tonality, no one seemed to miss Gm...until Paco and Camarón began to use it almost obsessively. And then the definitive Gm statement: the Almoraima alzapúa.

If you take this into consideration, chords like C#dim7 seem thoroughly exotic by comparison.



guitarbuddha -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jul. 3 2007 2:20:51)

C#dim7 is A7b9 in first inversion with the root ommited. That is the por medio home chord. Jazz?



zata -> RE: Mario Escudero (Jul. 3 2007 2:39:36)

quote:

C#dim7 is A7b9 in first inversion with the root ommited.


I was using that as symbolic of chords other than standard La, Mi, Sol, Do etc. I also remember when suddenly it became fashionable to play sevenths, not as passing chords or transitions, but where you would normally play a full chord...this was a major step in the direction of jazz.

Listen to Son de la Frontera...they use classic harmony. It sounds hip in its way.



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