RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

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[Poll]

NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist

after playing for baile 10 years and cante ten years

8% (3)

Once they have mastered compas

13% (5)

once they have mastered all flamenco techniques and compas

16% (6)

once they play 'la cucaracha' and yell ole at the end

13% (5)

when they play with true aire

22% (8)

when they can play 'la feria' just like juan martin

5% (2)

once theyve ripped off a car with some gypsies

5% (2)

once they wear the frilly shirts and sing 'po dom pom pom'

2% (1)

once they become a 'guiri in denial'

0% (0)

after completing a 16 hour shift in the captain beefcakes factory

11% (4)

Total Votes : 36

(last vote on : Dec. 23 2015 16:38:33)

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Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

or 'la cucaracha'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 7:46:32

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

i am not talking about if a singher calls a guy up (whice never happens here) is always by reputation that u get work or they have seen u play beefore.

if anyone calls u up u are requiered to do whatever they need from you accomp dance, cante whatever, if u can do it they call u if u cant they dont simple.

also ther are many switched on guitarists that can learn to accompany a plao they never did before at the rehersal, just because they havent had the oportiunity to do it in the past is not to say they cant do it.

I am talking about guitarists who devoted thyr life to playing flamenco and are good at doing solos and play with heart I am like you i prefer playing for dancers and cante also but i also dont for a second imagine that only what i do is flamenco and only I have the right to call myself a flamenco guitarist.

and i dont care who says it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 7:54:58

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

It is equally unfair to use an adjective to describe yourself that is normally used to describe that culture by that culture, but fair enough.

Sorry that was Romerito's quote. I don't think that is a fair analogy. There are people,non gypsy, all around the world who learn and play "gypsy music" of one form or another. And there are plenty of gypsies who play "jazz" or whatever. You learn the music properly, and you earn the right to describe yourself as a "...." guitarist, or whatever it is. But if you include accompany singing as part of "learn the music properly", then Sonikete is still correct in his thinking, it is just my point was to let the individuals in the culture make the judgements, don't speak for them. And just because some folks that you consider are "inside" the culture, does not mean YOU have to share the same tastes and definitions as them, just because you want "in" too.

But this leads me to these quotes from sonikete:

quote:

I didnt invent these definitions, i learnt them when i adopted flamenco. And in my book both Grisha and Todd are incredible musicians who play flamenco solos incredibly well.

But they dont fit the description of a "flamenco guitarist" the way i have been formed to think, in the same way that i can maybe become a flamenco guitarist, but never a "flamenco" the way Tomatito, Camarón or Farruquito are.

And

quote:

If people then choose to define it in another way, fine, but then they might get a clue about why they arent taken seriously by flamencos in spain, if they bring their definition into that environment.

Ok. First of all, I understand Sonikete's point. He is right about certain attitudes "in Spain". You go to andalucia to see flamenco, and what you get is a 3-4 hour marathon of cante, just voice and guitar. No guitar solos, and maybe one dancer, Guito or somebody famous. That is flamenco for sure, and I love that. Flamenco guitar by itself requires a long attention span. Almost all instrumental music does, unless it is background. But it is a shame that it gets more respect and recognition OUTSIDE it's country of origin. Still you can't deny that is how it is.

But amongst the flamencos themselves, you will have some singers who will beat the guitarist over the head with a cane for a wrong chord or too much flashy falsetas, or one that will respect the guitar and even do palmas for a solo. Camaron loved the guitar and guitarists, solo or accompanying. Many singers play, and many guitarists sing. It is a mutal respect quite often. But a lot of aficionados feel obligated to put the guitar "in it's place" so to speak, as if to emphasize the importance of cante. A bit of snoby attitude to show the "depth" of involvement is important. But that does not mean it has to be the overall "cultural view" of all flamencos.

Sonikete, I feel your words are quite revealing. You seem so hung up on adaption of the culture, and terms to define yourself, because, you are not spanish. you say you can "be" a flamenco guitarist, but not "be" a flamenco like Tomatito, Camaron, Farruquito. Let's put it a little better. You can never be GIPSY like those guys you mentioned. You can never be like Paco, Gerardo, Vicente, who, although PAYOS, are Andaluz. You can never be like Poveda or Chicuelo who, although not Andaluz, are SPANISH. But all are "flamencos".

Now once we leave the country, you are a guiri. Now you can play for singer, play solo, play for dance, whatever, you can get a "clue", but you can never be as "inside" as the guys above. No matter what, if you were born outside, you will always be from outside, no matter how you adapt or try to use what you think are definitions of this or that, marry the daughter, whatever, the simple definition is "guiri". But that does not mean one can't be a "FLAMENCO" and be from outside Spain. Tino Vandersman is better than a lot of gypsy guitarists in Spain, but it does not matter that he plays for singing, he will never be defined as "as flamenco as Chicuelo, Paco Tomatito, etc", because he is first and foremost, a guiri. But he is still a "flamenco", not just an aficionado. But to be "taken seriously" in Spain as you said, just realize that there is no way to be the "best flamenco guitarist" in a contest if you are not Spanish. They recently created a special prize category for non spaniards, which sort of shows what "taken seriously" means to flamenco aficionados in Spain.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:02:17

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

I agree with Ricardo

seems like you latched on to one point of view mibe even 10 and allowed that to write your hole flamenco bible.
wich it fine to do, i mean thats how we all di it, but just like you , many other people have meet flamencos from spain and talked and read (ricardo has meet almost every big name ) and just like u everyone else has written theyr own flamenco bible.

noones is written in stone, as long as you are willing to aknolodge that then i might even humor u and agree

for every guy that says one thing theres another that contradicts it

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:14:34

Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

what i wanna know is, who voted 'after completing a 16 hour shift in the captain beefcakes factory'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:17:16

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

it is just my point was to let the individuals in the culture make the judgements, don't speak for them.

Thats why i originally quoted david83 from paco´s forum.

quote:

But a lot of aficionados feel obligated to put the guitar "in it's place" so to speak, as if to emphasize the importance of cante.

The guitar is just as valid as song the way i see it, but if it has no connection to song at all i dont consider it flamenco.

quote:

You seem so hung up on adaption of the culture, and terms to define yourself, because, you are not spanish. you say you can "be" a flamenco guitarist, but not "be" a flamenco like Tomatito, Camaron, Farruquito.

I could become a "flamenco" if i moved down there and joined the mayhem, but youre right, i meant having the combination of blood and environment of Camaron, Tomatito or Farruquito is what i´ll never get. I said a flamenco "like Camaron, Tomatito or Farruquito" ...

quote:

Tino Vandersman is better than a lot of gypsy guitarists in Spain, but it does not matter that he plays for singing, he will never be defined as "as flamenco as Chicuelo, Paco Tomatito, etc", because he is first and foremost, a guiri. But he is still a "flamenco", not just an aficionado.

I agree

quote:

But to be "taken seriously" in Spain as you said, just realize that there is no way to be the "best flamenco guitarist" in a contest if you are not Spanish. They recently created a special prize category for non spaniards, which sort of shows what "taken seriously" means to flamenco aficionados in Spain.

Well that could change if people had a bit higher standards abroad and stopped defining flamenco guitarist as something ottmar liebert also could fit.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:22:54

Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Well that could change if people had a bit higher standards abroad and stopped defining flamenco guitarist as something ottmat liebert also could fit.

c'mon sonikete, now that is a bit much. Youre really generalising now, and hey your from abroad. It seems nothing is good enough for u unless its from spain. You set an impossible goal here, 'if your not spanish u suck'. Hey your not spanish but u play well. I think your last comment sux....sorry.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:28:34

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

I know , u know there is a way to be respectful to flamenco , without beeing disrespectfull to tousands of overseas players who love it just as much and practice it just as much and support it just as much.

u can do both u know .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:31:57

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

c'mon sonikete, now that is a bit much. Youre really generalising now, and hey your from abroad. It seems nothing is good enough for u unless its from spain. You set an impossible goal here, 'if your not spanish u suck'. Hey your not spanish but u play well.

I have already said several times that im just stating my opinion, everyone here is free to make their own minds up.

But i feel a lot of people here is trying to persuade me to give up my beliefs. If you want to debate this subject, then thats ok, i enjoy it and i think its interesting and a lot of interesting things come out of the discussion. But its pretty pointless to try to change my mind.

quote:

I know , u know there is a way to be respectful to flamenco , without beeing disrespectfull to tousands of overseas players who love it just as much and practice it just as much.

u can do both u know .

Of course florian, i dont see where our opinions differ there.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:35:19

Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

its not about beleifs, its about u just being plain rude now. Even if thats wot u belif(its a contradiction cause u a 'guiri' too) theres no point telling everone they suck, thats just rude and lack of basic human respect. Why r u trying to come across as all elitest and sh$#.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:39:50

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

well on just the quote above domenic quoted you on what is clearly a disrespectfull thing to generalize about all the outside players and flamenco followers, u qoted him, didnt correct him and you said,
" Hey i am just stating my opinions, take it or leave it"

like ricardo said once, IMO is not a licence to be disrespectfull.

there are those overseas who think that Otmar is flamenco yes, but they are everywhere even in Spain.

there are also those who devoted theyr hole life to flamenco flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:42:36

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

its not about beleifs, its about u just being plain rude now. Even if thats wot u belif(its a contradiction cause u a 'guiri' too) theres no point telling everone they suck, thats just rude and lack of basic human respect. Why r u trying to come across as all elitest and sh$#.

In what way im i disrespectful? If you mean im disrespectful towards Grisha or Todd i dont think i am at all, Grisha is a total monster as musician and ive praised Todd´s playing several times before.

Who am i disrespecting?

But I mean cmon lets be realistic here, paco plays the way he does because he played to singers before and all soloists ive ever heard of has as well. If you would like to make that part of their hard labor irrelevant then i think thats very disrespectful towards them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:50:50

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

paco plays the way he does cause he practiced more than anyone before his time

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:54:40

Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

Well that could change if people had a bit higher standards abroad and stopped defining flamenco guitarist as something ottmat liebert also could fit.

dont u think this comment is a bit much, or thats o.k for u?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:54:47

Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

forget it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:57:33

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

quote:

The guitar is just as valid as song the way i see it, but if it has no connection to song at all i dont consider it flamenco.

Yeah, you said before. But it is still a contradiction, based on your other assesments. A solo guitar concert, based on flamenco "songs", even if the falsetas are like the melody of cante, is not "flamenco" unless done by a guitarist you KNOW can accompany. That is the contradiction. Truth is, guitar is valid to you only if the guitarist has accomp skills, and even then, you may want to say with out the singing it is not flamenco. At least that is what I got from you before. What you are really saying is the guitar is valid when accompanying, not on it's own. Or on it's own only in rare cases that pass your personal approval.

quote:

Well that could change if people had a bit higher standards abroad and stopped defining flamenco guitarist as something ottmar liebert also could fit.

Nah. Japanese know what flamenco is about, same with Holland, for a long time now. I don't see change happening just because of higher standard "definitions". Ottmar could actually enter the foreignor category if he wanted. No harm done to flamenco watching him "lose" the contest.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:58:50

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

dont u think this comment is a bit much, or thats o.k for u?

Not in the least, he makes more money than many superb flamenco guitarists in spain who has worked a thousand times harder and done the basic training.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 8:59:00

Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

now u just being a ****a.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:00:15

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

At least that is what I got from you before. What you are really saying is the guitar is valid when accompanying, not on it's own. Or on it's own only in rare cases that pass your personal approval.

Well the next step after playing paco falsetas and learning how to accompany is usually composing, and there the cante experience shows.

I dont understand this, if i say that all soloists in spain usually accompany singers as a part of their formation, then im disrespecful to guiri guitarists, but when you say cante is an irrelevant part of becoming a flamenco guitarist, dont you think thats disrespectful to the spanish guitarists who then have to do twice as much work to earn that title?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:04:36

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

a a ****a ????

lol did they invent a new word ??

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:05:18

Guest

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 20 2006 9:13:41

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:08:21

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

but u not saying that and you not saying it that way, if you did, i would have been practicing by now, which i am gonna do now.

thanks domenic

u a good man

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:08:30

Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Florian)

sorry but its getting a bit much.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:12:50

sonikete

Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

There is no reason for personal attacks here. From what i understand, in your opinion cante has nothing to do with sologuitar and spanish guitarists that spend a lot of time doing that instead of working on their picado are stupid.

Ok. But thats not my opinion.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:14:07

Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)

this is the moment where i leave this discussion.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:16:04

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

From what i understand, in your opinion cante has nothing to do with sologuitar and spanish guitarists that spend a lot of time doing that instead of working on their picado are stupid.

absolutly noone is saying that here,

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:18:45

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

The guitar is just as valid as song the way i see it, but if it hasnt no connection to song at all i dont consider it flamenco.

I'm not as oriented in flamenco as sonikete, but i think this is a good sum up.

IMO It doesn't mean that flamenco playing guitarists outside of spain need to panic about not living in andalucia. Your music isn't invalid just because of some label. Make it work, feel good about it. If people frown about it, don't worry. When has there ever been anything progressive that hasn't been frowned upon by someone? I would think flamenco benefits from peripheral movement (even if some of the neoflamenco can feel like a bit too much)

It would bug me more if people outside spain make it their goal to become as spanish as possible, and then become more conservative about flamenco than most flamencos. There's a difference between that, and having a love and respect for a culture, just as there is in learning and practising any form of art.

(.. uh, ottmar who?)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:20:04

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

It would bug me more if people outside spain make it their goal to become as spanish as possible, and then become more conservative about flamenco than most flamencos. There's a difference between that, and having a love and respect for a culture, just as there is in learning and practising any form of art.

uhhhh that annoys the crap out of me too

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:21:56

Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

paco plays the way he does because he played to singers before and all soloists ive ever heard of has as well. If you would like to make that part of their hard labor irrelevant then i think thats very disrespectful towards them.

Sorry it is turning into a "gang up on sonikete", but you bring up some good issues, some sensitive but important, and your ideas are common among many aficionados. I feel foreign aficionados come on a bit stronger with it than Spaniards or Gypsies, sort of like because they are embarrased about "Ottmar". Trying to break those ties, or shed that skin to become more "flamenco" as possible. Also, many maestro tocaores have emphasized the importance of Cante in interviews, because they know the focus of the interview is guitar and want to be clear. But you have that extremist view that, sure instrumental music is nice, and folks will listen to jazz or classical, brazillian, whatever, but the die hard cante fans are like "solo concert of flamenco guitar?....that is not flamenco, flamenco is cante....". I don't get the strong predjudice against it, but I see it a lot, especially in the foreign aficionados. The only thing it looks like to me is "let me boycott solo guitar, to prove a point to other foreignors". Otherwise, don't make a big deal, just ignore the solo guitar stuff if you get bored by it.

Anyway, yeah Paco, great because he knows cante? Ok sure that is part of it, especially the creative part. But playing? Not really. So many accompany well, but so few can do like Paco. And guys like Grisha can play like Paco, despite not starting with cante. But being a figure and creator, that is something else. And there is a hazing that must happen to the flamenco guitarist, like in a fraternity, to get acceptance. You have to learn the "hard way" about baile cante, etc. But it is not like you study cante for years then you play like Paco suddenly.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2006 9:22:45

Guest

RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to mrMagenta)

quote:

It would bug me more if people outside spain make it their goal to become as spanish as possible, and then become more conservative about flamenco than most flamencos.

HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA.....o.k now im back, that just about sum u up sonikete