Ricardo -> RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist (Dec. 20 2006 8:02:17)
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It is equally unfair to use an adjective to describe yourself that is normally used to describe that culture by that culture, but fair enough. Sorry that was Romerito's quote. I don't think that is a fair analogy. There are people,non gypsy, all around the world who learn and play "gypsy music" of one form or another. And there are plenty of gypsies who play "jazz" or whatever. You learn the music properly, and you earn the right to describe yourself as a "...." guitarist, or whatever it is. But if you include accompany singing as part of "learn the music properly", then Sonikete is still correct in his thinking, it is just my point was to let the individuals in the culture make the judgements, don't speak for them. And just because some folks that you consider are "inside" the culture, does not mean YOU have to share the same tastes and definitions as them, just because you want "in" too. But this leads me to these quotes from sonikete: quote:
I didnt invent these definitions, i learnt them when i adopted flamenco. And in my book both Grisha and Todd are incredible musicians who play flamenco solos incredibly well. But they dont fit the description of a "flamenco guitarist" the way i have been formed to think, in the same way that i can maybe become a flamenco guitarist, but never a "flamenco" the way Tomatito, Camarón or Farruquito are. And quote:
If people then choose to define it in another way, fine, but then they might get a clue about why they arent taken seriously by flamencos in spain, if they bring their definition into that environment. Ok. First of all, I understand Sonikete's point. He is right about certain attitudes "in Spain". You go to andalucia to see flamenco, and what you get is a 3-4 hour marathon of cante, just voice and guitar. No guitar solos, and maybe one dancer, Guito or somebody famous. That is flamenco for sure, and I love that. Flamenco guitar by itself requires a long attention span. Almost all instrumental music does, unless it is background. But it is a shame that it gets more respect and recognition OUTSIDE it's country of origin. Still you can't deny that is how it is. But amongst the flamencos themselves, you will have some singers who will beat the guitarist over the head with a cane for a wrong chord or too much flashy falsetas, or one that will respect the guitar and even do palmas for a solo. Camaron loved the guitar and guitarists, solo or accompanying. Many singers play, and many guitarists sing. It is a mutal respect quite often. But a lot of aficionados feel obligated to put the guitar "in it's place" so to speak, as if to emphasize the importance of cante. A bit of snoby attitude to show the "depth" of involvement is important. But that does not mean it has to be the overall "cultural view" of all flamencos. Sonikete, I feel your words are quite revealing. You seem so hung up on adaption of the culture, and terms to define yourself, because, you are not spanish. you say you can "be" a flamenco guitarist, but not "be" a flamenco like Tomatito, Camaron, Farruquito. Let's put it a little better. You can never be GIPSY like those guys you mentioned. You can never be like Paco, Gerardo, Vicente, who, although PAYOS, are Andaluz. You can never be like Poveda or Chicuelo who, although not Andaluz, are SPANISH. But all are "flamencos". Now once we leave the country, you are a guiri. Now you can play for singer, play solo, play for dance, whatever, you can get a "clue", but you can never be as "inside" as the guys above. No matter what, if you were born outside, you will always be from outside, no matter how you adapt or try to use what you think are definitions of this or that, marry the daughter, whatever, the simple definition is "guiri". But that does not mean one can't be a "FLAMENCO" and be from outside Spain. Tino Vandersman is better than a lot of gypsy guitarists in Spain, but it does not matter that he plays for singing, he will never be defined as "as flamenco as Chicuelo, Paco Tomatito, etc", because he is first and foremost, a guiri. But he is still a "flamenco", not just an aficionado. But to be "taken seriously" in Spain as you said, just realize that there is no way to be the "best flamenco guitarist" in a contest if you are not Spanish. They recently created a special prize category for non spaniards, which sort of shows what "taken seriously" means to flamenco aficionados in Spain.
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