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RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist
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[Poll]
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NEW POLL-When can someone truley say thay are a flamenco guitarist
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| after playing for baile 10 years and cante ten years |
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| Once they have mastered compas |
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| once they have mastered all flamenco techniques and compas |
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| once they play 'la cucaracha' and yell ole at the end |
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| when they play with true aire |
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| when they can play 'la feria' just like juan martin |
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| once theyve ripped off a car with some gypsies |
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| once they wear the frilly shirts and sing 'po dom pom pom' |
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| once they become a 'guiri in denial' |
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| after completing a 16 hour shift in the captain beefcakes factory |
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Total Votes : 36
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(last vote on : Dec. 23 2015 16:38:33)
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sonikete
Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden
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 RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
well i saw a documentary and read it somewhere that is comes or atlist the modern form of it as you know it comes from hollywood.
Dancing Girls
Lipsius discourses on public prostitutes in the theatre. Telethusa and Quinctia were probably Gaditanian damsels who combined the professions of dancer and harlot. These dancing girls were called saltatrices. Ovid in his Amores, speaks of dancing women: 'One pleases by her gestures, and moves her arms to time, and moves her graceful sides with languishing art in the dance; to say nothing about myself, who am excited on every occasion, put Hippolytus there--he would become a Priapus.' Dancing was in general discouraged amongst the Romans. During the Republic and the earlier periods of the Empire women never appeared on the stage, but they frequently acted in the parties of the great. These dancing girls accompanied themselves with music (the chief instrument being the castanet) and sometimes with song.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/priap/prp107.htm
(they seem to have done more than dancing  )
THE FLAMENCO GUITAR
The guitar was introduced to Spain through the Caliphate of Córdoba in the: Ninth Century A.D., and although we are reasonably sure of the evolutionary process of the Cante, no one knows quite for certain when the guitar was first used to accompany Flamenco. I suspect it occurred initially in the early stages of the music, and have thus included an example of Nubian oud praying on the cassette. The oud is the forerunner to the l and is played usually with an eagle feather. This plucking technique is very similar to the function of the thumb in Flamenco guitar playing. The oud is a lower pitched instrument, but one hears definite traces of the oud in the playing of Benitez El De Alcalá in example number 3, as well as Roman El Granaíno in example number 5. Again, the "Cana" in example two is perhaps the oldest style of Flamenco we know of: the singer is encouraged by shouts of '01e’!", which comes from the Arabic "Allah!".
http://www.afana.org/flamenco.htm
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Date Dec. 19 2006 21:14:51
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
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Can't agree that playing solos is harder than accompanying, but I agree that what Grisha and Todd do is harder than a lot of accompanying, but I can't go so far as to say that playing hard solos is harder than accompanying. It depends to what level you take the accompanying to. I also think that the level you play solos, if that's all you do, has something to do with if you can be considered a "flamenco guitarist" Given the level of a Grisha or a Todd, I don't see how anyone would deny them, or anyone who plays on that level, the title no matter if they never in their lives played for dance or cante. Because they both play like they do, so it's academic if they do or not. I think a good test would be do good aficianados relate to the playing, and in those two cases, It's pretty much a sure bet in most aficianados minds.
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Date Dec. 19 2006 21:19:06
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Guest
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RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
To sum up my point of view its like this:
Flamenco gravitates around cante and a flamenco guitarist first priority is to be able to accompany it. I mean thats how the guitar got into the picture in the first place.
Take it or leave it
What about people who play flamenco guitar but dont have access to a singer, does that mean they can never be a flamenco guitarist? And if they can never be a flamenco guitist, and this is what they set out to do (become flamenco guitarist) should they just cut their loss's and find something else knowing their pursuit is futile just because, through no fault of their own, they cant accompany a singer cause theirs no singer in their town/city to accompany.
Maybe we need to draw a line between being a 'flamenco' and being a 'flamenco guitarist'. Its all just labels and peoples own definitions that create the labels. Your definition may differ to someone elses defintion so its all subjective, like Ricardo said its all got to do with where you draw your own line.
I think for guitarists not living in spain but learning flamenco, if you cant accompany a singer because theirs none around theres absoloutly nothing wrong with doing what u can with what u have, and yes u will become a 'flamenco guitarist' if thats what u want. The main thing is that u enjoy what u r doing and when u can u can take a trip to spain and learn as much as u can while your there but if u cant get to spain dont let it stop u learning flamenco.
I think we can take the whole puro thing a little too far, also i think we can add an irrational element of mysticalcysm (is that a word ) to the whole equation. Dont get me wrong, flamenco guitar is a very, very hard endeavor and we shouldnt fool ourselfs into thinking its easy. But on the other side of the coin we shouldnt fool ourselfs into thinking certain things are unachievable because of circumstances.
Holy crap, i think thats the longest post for me ever 
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Date Dec. 19 2006 22:57:32
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Guest
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RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
An ugly caterpillar may become the most beautiful butterfly
i like that, its poetic
quote:
If people then choose to define it in another way, fine, but then they might get a clue about why they arent taken seriously by flamencos in spain if they bring their definition in that environment.
only an arrgent idiot would go over there thinking that their defintion is the only one. I dont think u get my point sonikete. Yourve been playing a lot longer than me and know a lot more about flamenco than me. O.k im not trying to take away anything from what u r saying.
What i am saying is people doing flamenco not in spain arnt going to always have the same environment, opportunities, priorities, goals, influences, culture, language, beer, food, weather etc, than people who are in spain. This does not mean one cant learn an artform from that country they just have to keep in mind 'im doing flamenco in america or england or outer somalia' or where ever they are and make the most of what they have. The fact is they are not a spaniard playing flamenco in spain, they are an american in america english in england a somali in somalia. I dunno, is my point making any sense at all? Why try and pretend your in spain because your only gonna be dissapointed your not there. Make the most of what u do have, and yes if u can play for singers or even better try and go to spain but dont make it the be all and end all if its not practical.
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Date Dec. 19 2006 23:47:24
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sonikete
Posts: 735
Joined: Jan. 9 2004
From: Sweden
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RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
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quote:
What i am saying is people doing flamenco not in spain arnt going to always have the same environment, opportunities, priorities, goals, influences, culture, language, beer, food, weather etc, than people who are in spain. This does not mean one cant learn an artform from that country they just have to keep in mind 'im doing flamenco in america or england or outer somalia' or where ever they are and make the most of what they have.
You can learn as much as you can, like henrik or romerito, they dont seem to have a problem with the definition. And you can learn a lot outside of spain, but i dont see any reason to redefine anything because of lacking the environment. I mean there are a lot of workshops outside of spain you could go to or use all methods available to learn more about cante, and that will help your solo playing becoming more "flamenco".
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Date Dec. 19 2006 23:50:35
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Guest
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RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
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your still missing my point, im not advocating redfining anything. You seem to be the one hung up on defintions. Defintions are subjective. Im saying make the most of what u do have and dont get hung up on what u dont have. What do u think people dont try make the most of what they have because they dont have access to singer or they should just give up and try hillbilly or something?
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Date Dec. 19 2006 23:58:37
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Guest
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RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
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yes finally, we have met on middle ground I dont dissaggre with your definition in a cultural aspect at all and im sure no else does. Flamenco has changed a lot since the 70s and from what i understand people are divided on the whole jazz/classical influences brought in by artist like paco even in spain. If flamenco was the same as it was in the early sixties i probably wouldnt have had as much interest in it. But maybe if i grew up in spain i would appreciate that era of flamenco, i dunno. I enjoy playing what i have learnt so far and feel privlaged that i have been able to play and learn with the dancers/singers/guitarists that i have so far. Im not interested in playing any other style, but thats my taste it doesnt mean other styles are no good. I just cant see myself being motivated to learn other style because flamenco has all the elements musically that i want, its not stuck in a basket where people would say that sounded just like the other one. The diversity of sound thats possible is only limited by your imagination(or lack of technique )
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Date Dec. 20 2006 0:22:09
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Guest
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RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to sonikete)
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Good. I never meant that flamenco should sound like the sixties, but thats a whole chapter of its own
oh sh#@, thats a whole new can of worms!! You might need to start a new thread for that one(try doing a poll, its fun ) I think i understand u better now anyway sonikete, maybe i needed to read what you saying a little closer before i start argueing...errr i mean debating with u 
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Date Dec. 20 2006 0:36:10
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)
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U know Sonikete, we have a great gitano singer here in adelaide , sings great, problem is he talks so much crap I would not belive or take seriously a word he says and Domenic and Alo and anyone in flamenco in Adelaide knows this, can back me up on this, i just hope u didnt get your ideas by the equivalents of him in Spain and follow it as a religion.
Cause his truth and views are just that that suits him and makes him look great and anyone else crap. Many people formulate the " truth" in a way that suits them.
In romania i come from a culture where everyone knows everything also, its eazyer to just talk then be quiet or say "i dont know", it is your job to see the meaning behind everything. Every guy in the bar KNOWS why Romania isnt winning the soccer world cup, every guy IS a CASANOVA with the ladyes, yes we still havent won the world cup and not every guy gets laid
everyone is telling the "truth" only problem is that is the "truth" as THEY see it.
if 100 people look at the same painting in a gallery, there would be 100 different impressions of this painting, but some would speak up about theyr own impression and some would just follow someones ideas who is better at putting it into words or louder or is more intelligent and agree that that is what they saw too, playing it safe.
u dont have to think my way i just ask that atlist u aknolodge that there is a chance you could be wrong.
_____________________________
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Date Dec. 20 2006 4:45:06
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Guest
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RE: NEW POLL-When can someone truley... (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
here's a quote
"Yo no creo en el toque gitano ni en el toque payo. Pienso que es tocar con corazon y con sensibilidad."----Juan Habichuela
could u translate?
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Date Dec. 20 2006 7:16:44
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