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elias

 

Posts: 40
Joined: Nov. 23 2023
 

Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? 

I'm in the market for a spruce/cypress "classical." I need something that has just a little bit more sustain than a flamenco affords and this wouldn't be for playing muy flamenco but more 'flamenco inspired' material. As I understand it you can't really get both fast response and long sustain, so the so-called long sustain flamenco guitars actually use harmonics to keep the note going (?). Yet I still mostly prefer the woody, raw sound of a good blanca.

Should I look into a cypress classical guitar (maybe 655 or 660 for more punch?), or is it possible to have a blanca built with sustain pushed to the very limits, even if it means sacrificing rasgueados, while retaining as much of everything else that makes for a good typical blanca?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 13 2024 3:52:02
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1139
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

In my view a Leonard Plattner, or a Santos Copy made by John Ray or an old Marin Montero classical (before 1979).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 13 2024 15:30:08
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1749
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

I have a Lazarides model Reyes, that would suit you I think. Long sustain, still percussive enough to do flamenco.
The Reyes from vicente, and most Reyes have pretty long sustain. Some Gerundino’s too.
Look for the bigger and heavier flamenco guitars, you wil find one you like. A good guitar from around 1400 gram will do the trick I think.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 13 2024 16:10:56
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

what do you mean by a long sustain ?

a paco castillo 205 have long sustain

some years ago tried a Negra (non factory) that had long sustain

or do you mean super long sustain ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 13 2024 16:22:35
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2208
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

Some time ago, a friend who was a student at the Conservatorio de Música had to play in an end of term concert. He had very good pulsacion but a very nasal sounding Valeriano. So I lent him my Gerundino blanca. There were 6 other students, all with palo santo classical guitars. He played better than the others and the Gerundino wiped out all of the other guitars.

You should have no problem in finding a classical blanca.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 13 2024 16:33:01
 
elias

 

Posts: 40
Joined: Nov. 23 2023
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Echi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

In my view a Leonard Plattner, or a Santos Copy made by John Ray or an old Marin Montero classical (before 1979).


I've actually been looking at a Plattner cypress classical. I might pull the trigger...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 13 2024 17:56:43
 
elias

 

Posts: 40
Joined: Nov. 23 2023
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to gerundino63

I've heard good things about the Lazarides Reye's copy, but I never thought of Gerundino as a ypically long sustain type of blanca. Always thought of him as the Cedar/Cypress guy and I honestly don't see the appeal of Cedar over Cypress.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 13 2024 17:58:21
 
ernandez R

Posts: 758
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

You might consider a Culpepper spruce nomex double top with cypress back and ribs. I have the first one he built and it might suit you. There is a build thread here on the Foro. Look for “ light weight Blanca”

Jason Magiyer (spelling) had her and made a number of videos before she came home to me.

HR

FYI: no info on your home page here so it’s good to add what country you are in etc.

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 13 2024 19:16:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14960
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

quote:

ORIGINAL: elias

I'm in the market for a spruce/cypress "classical." I need something that has just a little bit more sustain than a flamenco affords and this wouldn't be for playing muy flamenco but more 'flamenco inspired' material. As I understand it you can't really get both fast response and long sustain, so the so-called long sustain flamenco guitars actually use harmonics to keep the note going (?). Yet I still mostly prefer the woody, raw sound of a good blanca.

Should I look into a cypress classical guitar (maybe 655 or 660 for more punch?), or is it possible to have a blanca built with sustain pushed to the very limits, even if it means sacrificing rasgueados, while retaining as much of everything else that makes for a good typical blanca?


What you are after is a “unicorn” guitar, and since this doesn’t exist, those of us that want the same thing have 2 guitars….or 3…or 4…..or…..

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 14 2024 10:57:41
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1139
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

Some cypress guitars made by Santos, Barbero etc. can be played as classical and have that woody Madrid sound you are after.
Torres and Santos made classical guitars with cypress back and sides, so why not?

https://maderaguitarras.com/blog/marcus-toscano-interview/

I own a spruce topped flamenco Ramirez which is a very good guitar and suitable as well for the purpose.
I was in the taller of Leonard Plattner a month ago and tried a proper classical of his: very airy and clear sounding: a particularly good guitar, born as a classical, but it’s a kind of guitar suitable for flamenco if set purposedly. Even better if made with spruce and cypress (btw, a guitar dealer has one for sale).
I heard very good things of the Santos copy made by John Ray as well. Maybe he can make a cypress one for you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 14 2024 14:53:51
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 664
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Echi

i heard one on siccas cypress blanca 2017 if i recall , and sounded like a modern flamenco guitar , well balanced nothing more than that, more than 4k..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 14 2024 16:33:11
 
ernandez R

Posts: 758
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: elias

I'm in the market for a spruce/cypress "classical." I need something that has just a little bit more sustain than a flamenco affords and this wouldn't be for playing muy flamenco but more 'flamenco inspired' material. As I understand it you can't really get both fast response and long sustain, so the so-called long sustain flamenco guitars actually use harmonics to keep the note going (?). Yet I still mostly prefer the woody, raw sound of a good blanca.

Should I look into a cypress classical guitar (maybe 655 or 660 for more punch?), or is it possible to have a blanca built with sustain pushed to the very limits, even if it means sacrificing rasgueados, while retaining as much of everything else that makes for a good typical blanca?


What you are after is a “unicorn” guitar, and since this doesn’t exist, those of us that want the same thing have 2 guitars….or 3…or 4…..or…..



After my comment above I thought to myself the same thing, OP needs two different guitars: light weight sub 1000g fast attack Blanca and a bomber brick **** house 1800g Negra!

You only live once so why compromise with one guitar?


HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 14 2024 19:42:19
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

Hogwash on all of you, except Morante and Ricardo, but Ricardo is wrong. 😂

What you want is a Romanillos classical made with cypress. And if you can’t afford that, get any decent flamenco guitar and set the saddle at whatever height gives you 4mm at bass 12th fret and 3mm treble at 12th fret.

It’s not the wood, it’s the set up.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 15 2024 12:30:27
 
elias

 

Posts: 40
Joined: Nov. 23 2023
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

get any decent flamenco guitar and set the saddle at whatever height gives you 4mm at bass 12th fret and 3mm treble at 12th fret.

It’s not the wood, it’s the set up.


Is it really that simple? I think I'll try this...but then what gives something like a Reyes it's so-called long sustain and why do luthiers make flamenco and classicals differently if it's really just about the set up?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2024 12:00:14
 
elias

 

Posts: 40
Joined: Nov. 23 2023
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

What you are after is a “unicorn” guitar, and since this doesn’t exist, those of us that want the same thing have 2 guitars….or 3…or 4…..or…..


Yes, this would be my 3rd, but I guess my question was more on what gives a blanca that hollow, dry sound, and if this inimical to building for long sustain. Maybe classical guitars are usually built for long sustain and piano-like elegance but it's not necessary that these two always go together?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 16 2024 12:15:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14960
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

quote:

ORIGINAL: elias

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

get any decent flamenco guitar and set the saddle at whatever height gives you 4mm at bass 12th fret and 3mm treble at 12th fret.

It’s not the wood, it’s the set up.


Is it really that simple? I think I'll try this...but then what gives something like a Reyes it's so-called long sustain and why do luthiers make flamenco and classicals differently if it's really just about the set up?


Guitars don’t sustain very long. The idea is the technique of fingering that allows notes to sound as if they are sustaining like when you push the piano peddle down. This is an illusion. Here is Tomatito’s Reyes, like any other dry Blanca:



Classical guitars allow very high bridge regardless of action over the fingerboard. This is a fundamental design difference, you want a low bridge on a flamenco, yet clean sound over the fingerboard. Very different neck angles.

I think Estebanan was informing me of a Unicorn guitar that exists? I Remain skeptical until I try it myself.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2024 11:20:18
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1139
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

The way your original question was formulated, meant you are clear there are different kind of sustains.
If we were discussing with a couple of guitars in our hands, the words would be more meaningful as it’s hard to find the right words to describe something quite easy to catch by experience.
In fact the thing here is the note transient more than the mere sustain. In other words the point is how fast the note follows the plucked string and how long the vibration lasts for before fading.
Clearly if the luthier aims for a fast and strong sound emission, whose wave does a kind of an immediate peak (I don’t enter here in the matter of the monopole vibrational pattern ) this will have necessarily to fade sooner. Other guitars are made to generate a sound wave with less peak and longer lasting.
Flamenco guitars - particularly those lightly made - are mostly of the first type. There are also some classical guitars with a fast transient and a less quick decay, or better, with strong hamonics giving the illusion of a long lasting note.
As I said, this is the Santos kind of guitar or the Reyes made in the eighties (as they produce many hamonics).
Sides made of Cypres are more flexible and light and therefore work for a strong sound peak when the top vibrates. The sustain here is mostly apparent.
Romanillos is more Hauseresque. The note is more solid as the top is almost 1/3 thicker.
Difficult to express for me but the guitars of Hauser and Romanillos are kind fast and yet with a proper classical kind of sustain.
Stephen is not wrong when I guesses that a Romanillos kind of guitar with lighter sides would do the job, but I think in a different way.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2024 11:38:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14960
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Echi

quote:

Hauser and Romanillos are kind fast and yet with a proper classical kind of sustain.


Ah ha! The unicorn guitars!



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2024 12:04:13
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1139
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

Here Angel Romero explains very well how the Hauser is both fast and with sustain.



He's kind of using Picado here.

The real peculiarity of a Hauser for a classical guitarist is how the note can be extremely expressive and yet fast. The guitar of Romanillos have the same thing in common with Hauser. Both the guitars are definitely classical though .

My idea is that a Santos derived guitar (like Reyes, Barbero etc..) with Cypress is faster (with a straight peak of the note) and with more harnonics, somehow with a different kind of sustain.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2024 13:39:11
 
elias

 

Posts: 40
Joined: Nov. 23 2023
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Echi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Guitars don’t sustain very long. The idea is the technique of fingering that allows notes to sound as if they are sustaining like when you push the piano peddle down. This is an illusion. Here is Tomatito’s Reyes, like any other dry Blanca:



I’ve never played a Reyes but I have always been tempted to believe that any classical guitarist would consider it actually low sustain.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi
There are also some classical guitars with a fast transient and a less quick decay, or better, with strong hamonics giving the illusion of a long lasting note.
As I said, this is the Santos kind of guitar or the Reyes made in the eighties (as they produce many hamonics).
Sides made of Cypres are more flexible and light and therefore work for a strong sound peak when the top vibrates. The sustain here is mostly apparent.
Romanillos is more Hauseresque. The note is more solid as the top is almost 1/3 thicker.
Difficult to express for me but the guitars of Hauser and Romanillos are kind fast and yet with a proper classical kind of sustain.
Stephen is not wrong when I guesses that a Romanillos kind of guitar with lighter sides would do the job, but I think in a different way.


Fascinating stuff. Where do Torres' guitars fall in this spectrum?

And I still wonder whether the woody and hollow sound of many flamencos is a result of this fast response/low sustain. Can a classical be built with this kind of sound? Because I often hear classicals that sound rather more elegant than woody or hollow. Is this to appeal to classical tastes or an inevitable consequence of longer sustain/more heavily built guitars?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 18 2024 21:18:05
 
ernandez R

Posts: 758
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Ricardo

Oy, there is so much effect going on in that Tomatito recording, he could be playing a broomstick, or the horn of a unicorn, and it would have sustain.

I understand what your saying but pick a better example.


A lot a variables, about ten guitars in I started diverging my already bastard child Spanish guitars onto flamenco and classical based on sound bar bracing, top thickness and distribution, lining mass and thickness, and neck string action angles, some high tech materials here and there, and a little bit country, a little bit rock n roll.

My flamenca notes are immediate and and tonally clear, less dynamic and color for sure, round at f18, not so much dry exactly, but hit hard a finger or four from the bone the wound strings growl and the trebles bark like a bitch in heat.

My classicals sing and ring, not like f’n piano, no Spanish guitar should sound like a piano in some uptight sagovian parlor, still the notes bloom and the dynamics mix and match depending on how you glide off the strings and where.

I’m sorry Sensi Faulk, perhaps this is where we part… snatch the pebble from my hand!

Good discussion though, it’s compelling to hear the ideas of players and builders alike, to be made to think or rather rethink ideas we find have become fixed.


HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2024 3:04:59
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1139
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

quote:

And I still wonder whether the woody and hollow sound of many flamencos is a result of this fast response/low sustain. Can a classical be built with this kind of sound? Because I often hear classicals that sound rather more elegant than woody or hollow. Is this to appeal to classical tastes or an inevitable consequence of longer sustain/more heavily built guitars?

It depends what you mean with “woody”. If you mean woody as the result of a forceful tone production, imho it cannot be, as it’s a kind of produced by the “quick distortion” of the top. That have that you are kind of driving the top to it’s limits , which is in contrast with the slow enduring wave movement required for the sustain.
A Santos kind of guitar has a very thin top and therefore is quick answering to the pluck of the strings, and yet very clear sounding, even more if made with cypress. Santos /Barbero have a less deep box frequence than a Torres/Garcia ecc.
IMHO a different option I suggest to try is a used Ramirez flamenco (given is not of those particularly dry sounding),p otherwise a cypress Granada made guitar (better if before 1979, when they started adding the Bouchet bar).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2024 11:46:27
 
Firefrets

 

Posts: 114
Joined: Mar. 22 2023
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Ricardo

I love that type of playing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 19 2024 23:12:51
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Echi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

quote:

And I still wonder whether the woody and hollow sound of many flamencos is a result of this fast response/low sustain. Can a classical be built with this kind of sound? Because I often hear classicals that sound rather more elegant than woody or hollow. Is this to appeal to classical tastes or an inevitable consequence of longer sustain/more heavily built guitars?

It depends what you mean with “woody”. If you mean woody as the result of a forceful tone production, imho it cannot be, as it’s a kind of produced by the “quick distortion” of the top. That have that you are kind of driving the top to it’s limits , which is in contrast with the slow enduring wave movement required for the sustain.
A Santos kind of guitar has a very thin top and therefore is quick answering to the pluck of the strings, and yet very clear sounding, even more if made with cypress. Santos /Barbero have a less deep box frequence than a Torres/Garcia ecc.
IMHO a different option I suggest to try is a used Ramirez flamenco (given is not of those particularly dry sounding),p otherwise a cypress Granada made guitar (better if before 1979, when they started adding the Bouchet bar).



So a late Santos or a Barbero has a lowerr main air resonance than a Torres which is smaller, but also has a thin top? From the book on Santos, supposedly written in conjunction with people who’ve handled many Santos instruments, the author says Santos was fairly consistent at getting near and F# main air resonance. Why would Torres guitars be lower? And getting lower than F# is weird territory because the chances that some notes will couple with the body resonance and wreak havoc are higher. Was Torres consistently hitting F?

I believe it’s possible to make small guitars with low main air, and I’ve done it myself, but to put out a blanket assessment of Santos and Barbero to hit higher main air than Torres consistently? I would think that because Barbero’s guitars are generally airier ( bigger and thin ) they would hover in the F# region also. I haven’t seen very many abs certainly not tapped on them myself, but received wisdom from older makers who worked on them regularly in the 1960’s report Barbero as having F# ish main air.

This is why I got snotty on Del Camp until they fired me, I got tired of reading post after post about physics and modes made essentially by people who haven’t handled enough of any one makers guitars to make authoritative observations about physics and how air resonance and top modes work. It’s tiresome and annoying and unnecessary to actually make a very good guitar.

Flamenco guitars are not all the same, nor are classical guitars. Both can play classical or flamenco if set up to be optimal for each of those kinds of playing. The problem is that there’s a species of ‘classical’ guitar today that’s being built to de-emphasize the attributes that make flamenco guitars work for rasgueado sound and feel. So these kinds of classical guitars don’t work properly for flamenco, they diverged into a different direction.

If you want a cypress classical, play a bunch of cypress flamenco guitars and figure out which one would work for you you raised the saddle to give a classical action that plays very clean.

You see, because when you raise the saddle height the 2 to 3 mm it will take to put the action in classical zone, this usually changes the feel of the finger attack because raising the saddle changes the tension and changing the tension emphasizes the upper partial series in a different way. It makes the upper partials speak out more, giving the impression of more sustain.

So anyway, keep the conversation dumbed down please lol 😂

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2024 4:03:48
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1139
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

As you know there are different periods with Santos.
Some guitars he made in the shop of Manuel and in the following years are closer to Torres than his later production.
Segovia pushed Santos for better trebles than in the Torres model (it’s not a secret some Torres didn’t excellent here) and Santos followed the path of making the box more rigid.
In my opinion the main differences are in the doming of the top, in slightly thicker plates ( often with asymmetrical bracing) and thicker sides. These things have a great relevance for the main air resonance.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 20 2024 22:49:37
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Echi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

As you know there are different periods with Santos.
Some guitars he made in the shop of Manuel and in the following years are closer to Torres than his later production.
Segovia pushed Santos for better trebles than in the Torres model (it’s not a secret some Torres didn’t excellent here) and Santos followed the path of making the box more rigid.
In my opinion the main differences are in the doming of the top, in slightly thicker plates ( often with asymmetrical bracing) and thicker sides. These things have a great relevance for the main air resonance.


Sure, but nobody or very, very few people in the world have had the opportunity to compare enough Torres’, Garcia’s, Barbero’s, and Santos’ cheek by jowl to be able to say anything authoritative about the main air resonance of the boxes.

All this talk is purely anecdotal.

There is enough variation in contemporary flamenco guitars made with cypress that if someone wanted to make one into a classical guitar, they’d just have to take it to a guitar maker and change the set up. If that doesn’t work for the guitarist then maybe they need someone to make a classical guitar for them in a different format than a typical flamenco guitar.

It’s also possible, and usually the case, that guitarists with more than one guitar have instruments that have different attributes as far as how the note is released and how it decays. Talking about the air in the box is deceptive because even if the range of main air resonance is as far as F to G# the guitar can still have a wide range of ‘release & decay’ attributes.

It’s misleading to guitarists who haven’t figured this out to weight them down with anecdotally loaded preconceptions. Hands on several guitars in a shop in consultation with a good dealer and experienced other guitarist is how to seek what’s good for you.

It pisses me off that this gets turned inside out as an air in the box issue. Hands on with ears engaged is you understand what a particular guitarist needs. And here’s the thing, in the great Santos book, if we take the authors word after looking at many of that makers instruments, he states that despite the evolution through different structural ideas in his building, his air resonance remains fairly constant at F#.

So how do we rely on different structural approaches between Torres and Barbero as a meter of how to watch main air resonance change over time? Answer is we can’t rely upon different structural approaches to predict the evolution through that time period; Santos hit the F# consistently regardless of his structure.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2024 1:29:30
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1139
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

I agree.
I couldn’t try many Torres or Santos nor make a direct comparison. Very few could.
Yet ,throughout the years, I have gathered infos which I consider solid enough to make the statement above, given I myself am able to build guitars, I know directly luthiers who restored both Torres and Santos and got some good documentations included first hand notes. I mean, there’s enough documentation about this matter to allow us to spot some differences between the average Torres - Santos guitar model.

quote:

even if the range of main air resonance is as far as F to G# the guitar can still have a wide range of ‘release & decay’ attributes.

That’s for sure.
I am the first one considering the matter of box frequence quite misleading. I think this is most the result than the cause of things.
This topic was something raised first by Julian Bream and Miles from Kent guitar classics about the Hauser made in 1940… they just observed that low pitched guitars generally share some characteristics.

The thing here is if you can play a Torres guitar as a flamenco guitar.
My answer is that this is not ideal.
Last week I was at the Roma expo guitar fair, in Italy, and tried a good number of Torres inspired guitars and basically none of them had a good enough separation of the bass strings to allow for a decent rasgueado.
The transient of the note is also slightly sweet and bass oriented for the purpose IMHO.
In my experience, what I define as a late Santos guitar, allow me a certain approximation here, while classical works well for the purpose instead.
quote:

Santos hit the F# consistently regardless of his structure.

Exactly.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2024 14:24:46
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14960
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

Oy, there is so much effect going on in that Tomatito recording, he could be playing a broomstick, or the horn of a unicorn, and it would have sustain.

I understand what your saying but pick a better example.


Um, I think you are NOT understanding. I chose that example because unlike whatever BS people think about Reyes having magic surprise sustain, is wrong. It probably would be due to compression pulling up the decay level of a note. No Spanish guitar has sustain. An electric guitar has sustain such that you have to learn to kill it via technique. Spanish nylon guitars are the opposite, ALL of them. You have to try to pretend a note sustains if possible, but it really doesn’t. Like a Marimba and other pitched percussion, the decay is super rapid. If bass strings are new sometimes sympathetic vibration gives the impression of sustain but it is fake. Probably Tomatito has dead strings here, but he usually sounds like this vs Vicente that tries to get reverb and compression going on his Reyes so it sounds like it has sustain…it doesn’t.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2024 15:19:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14960
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to Echi

quote:

The real peculiarity of a Hauser for a classical guitarist is how the note can be extremely expressive and yet fast.


To be honest, what you are talking about is all in the player’s fingers. Yes the subjective “feeling” of a guitar responding matters to the player, but you don’t really hear that outside. The Hauser has a lot of clarity, basically because it has more balance than typical classical guitars that have way way too much bass, and trebles only very high frequency brightness. In other words the mid range gives support to the balance of all the strings. That is what makes a melody seem to come out easy, but compression or something attempts the same so a recording is not going to reveal much unless compression is minimal. But the nice midrange is why for flamenco guys like me that guitar works vs say a Humphrey or that horrible Smallman.

The other thing about Hauser is very high bridge (when the string is high above the soundboard it vibrates more “lively”, but is not fun for right hand flamenco playing), and extra compensation, that gives sweetness to the melody above the bass (basically the notes are freaking flat as hell as you go up high). I have to counter compensate for this which feels weird to me, as I go up high. Like that guajiras high part is fast and I over did on that diminished chord (pulled the string too hard back to nut, making it sharper than I intended).

I know it is “mysterious” to a lot of players and give a sort of fake magic sweetness to the melody above the bass, but now I know what it is (auto tune lol) I don’t think it is a big deal. The last thing maybe affects sound response is that there are two finishes. Or rather, the sides are not finished the same way as the soundboard (unlike practically every guitar I have experienced). The lacquer used is normal on the sides and back, but very very thin on the top.

Also this talk about resonance, which octave are you talking about with F#??? I have never heard a guitar feeding back at that pitch. It is almost always at A3 (220 hz), practically every guitar ever when you push the mic into the soundhole. I have 3 guitars a little bit lower than that, but never lower than G. So G,G#,A are the problems…F# or Bb are on the down slopes. I have actually tuned guitars by singing into the soundhole, and it is that overblown A3 every time.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2024 15:40:21
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1139
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Cypress Classical - Any Suggestions? (in reply to elias

I don't think is that easy to make a guitar sound like a Hauser does, nor to get that clarity/projection for which Hauser guitars are famous for ...
You may judge a Hauser with the perspective of a flamenco player, and I respect it.
You care to certain aspects a classical guitar player doesn't find essential and viceversa.

A classical guitar player, will be are more interested in things like the articulation of the note + the projection + the clarity + the sustain: these characteristics happen (when and if it happens) as soon as the string is plucked and the tone is generated.
There's not a clear way to reach that result and many guitars just don't have it.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2024 17:50:26
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