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yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

Counterfeit Reyes? 

I'm not versed in Reyes guitars like some, but this one sure looks fishy to me. The label looks like a photo copy, it has a sloppy signature that is missing certain style details, the stamp is super light, and the stamp font is different from other Reyes guitars I've seen. There are other details on the guitar that appear inconsistent, too.

For those with more experience, does this guitar look authentic?

Note: I've edited this post to hopefully bring peace and harmony to all those on the foro.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 14:13:16
 
JasonM

Posts: 2038
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

I don’t know enough but I’d agree with your observations. The right hand side of the label doesn’t look straight either. Very sloppy. What kind of glue is that squeeze out on the back braces. Looks very clear, could be the lighting.

Anyhow, would never buy a 15k dollar guitar from Reverb sight unseen!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 15:46:15
 
RobF

Posts: 1602
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

quote:

For those with more experience, would you agree this is a counterfeit? I'd hate to see someone get burned on a guitar that costs $15k and is technically illegal to own.


I don’t think it’s illegal to own a fake or even to sell one, if not misrepresented.

Honestly, if you have a valid concern about this guitar you should be privately contacting the seller and Reverb with your case. It really doesn’t become anyone in the Foro to participate in this type of discussion unless they can present some form of substantive proof, not just vague allegations based upon sloppy penmanship and the like.

Not long ago a member of the Foro was accused of selling a fake Reyes and the accusation was made with literally zero proof behind it. The guy’s reputation was pretty well ruined on here and he would have had every right to demand the thread be removed. Food for thought…

The only thing I see wrong with that guitar is it’s ugly.

P.S. to Jason, that’s just hide glue. If anything, it points to the guitar being genuine, as does the diagonal grain on the centre strip.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 16:27:43
 
yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to RobF

In the US (where the item is being sold) and most other countries, it is illegal to sell or purchase a counterfeit.

Concerns can be brought up with the seller and Reverb, but that does not automatically mean the seller or Reverb will remove the listing. If you were dishonest and trying to sell a counterfeit, would you remove the listing because someone told you privately it was counterfeit? Or, would you instead try to find an ignorant buyer?

What kind of proof would you want to see? Is a forged signature or fake stamp not proof?

I think it is appropriate to discuss possible inauthentic items on appropriate forums to either warn/educate the community or to clarify things people can look for to discover a counterfeit, especially considering that the musical instrument market is flooded with counterfeits. Being that this is described as a Reyes flamenco guitar, do you not think a flamenco forum is an appropriate place to have an authenticity conversation?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 17:25:28
 
RobF

Posts: 1602
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

quote:

ORIGINAL: yourwhathurts69

In the US (where the item is being sold) and most other countries, it is illegal to sell or purchase a counterfeit.

Concerns can be brought up with the seller and Reverb, but that does not automatically mean the seller or Reverb will remove the listing. If you were dishonest and trying to sell a counterfeit, would you remove the listing because someone told you privately it was counterfeit? Or, would you instead try to find an ignorant buyer?

What kind of proof would you want to see? Is a forged signature or fake stamp not proof?

I think it is appropriate to discuss possible inauthentic items on appropriate forums to either warn/educate the community or to clarify things people can look for to discover a counterfeit, especially considering that the musical instrument market is flooded with counterfeits. Being that this is described as a Reyes flamenco guitar, do you not think a flamenco forum is an appropriate place to have an authenticity conversation?


First off, you have not presented any proof. You have said nothing to convince me, whatsoever. On the other hand, there are quite a few aspects about the guitar that make it look genuine. The onus is on you to prove the wrong, not on the owner to defend their innocence.

I think posts like this, which use the Foro as a bully pulpit, are completely inappropriate. Take it to Delcamp or wherever and see how far it gets. How are we to know that the intent of what amounts to be a fishing expedition isn’t to reduce the saleability of the guitar for the advantage of some unnamed purchaser? If I owned the guitar I’d be contacting Simon and requesting that this thread be deleted unless concrete proof of wrong-doing can be presented. This is all speculation that has the end result of casting doubt and harming someone. There’s laws against that, too.

Authenticity discussions can be appropriate when presented in a detailed manner by accepted experts, such as the Foro member Echi. Even then, caution should be exercised. Yeah, people can blah blah blah all day long about the authenticity of certain sunburst Les Paul’s seen in a coffee table book. People can blah blah blah about whatever they want. If the Foro degenerates into what amounts to be a gossip column, then watch how long any serious makers will stick around. It diminishes the place.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 17:50:44
 
yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to RobF

quote:

First off, you have not presented any proof. You have said nothing to convince me, whatsoever. On the other hand, there are quite a few aspects about the guitar that make it look genuine. The onus is on you to prove the wrong, not on the owner to defend their innocence.


Copying the details of a guitar to look like another is not uncommon; just think of all the Reyes copies out there. The difference in this case is that the signature and stamp are not what one would expect with an authentic Reyes. I've looked at over 50 Reyes, and NONE of them have this stamp or signature on the label. Does that not raise authenticity concerns to you?

quote:

I think posts like this, which use the Foro as a bully pulpit, are completely inappropriate. Take it to Delcamp or wherever and see how far it gets. How are we to know that the intent of what amounts to be a fishing expedition isn’t to reduce the saleability of the guitar for the advantage of some unnamed purchaser? This is all speculation that has the end result of casting doubt and harming someone. There’s laws against that, too. If I owned the guitar I’d be contacting Simon and requesting that this thread be deleted unless concrete proof of wrong-doing can be presented.


How is this a bully pulpit? Having a discussion about authenticity should be completely valid in a forum. It is not illegal or inappropriate to cast doubt when warranted, as is the case here.

quote:

Authenticity discussions can be appropriate when presented in a detailed manner by accepted experts, such as the Foro member Echi.


This is a ridiculous statement. "Accepted experts" are not the only people who can raise concerns about authenticity. Having said that, I would like to hear what others, including Echi, have to say. That is part of the reason this thread was started.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 18:45:46
 
yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to RobF

For reference, here is a photo of the only stamp I have seen used on Reyes guitars since the 70s. Notice the clear difference between this one and the one I posted in the initial post. Are my authenticity concerns not valid?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 18:55:37
 
RobF

Posts: 1602
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

I don’t make ridiculous statements when it comes to guitars. Anyone who participates in your witch hunt loses a lot of my respect, not that it matters. The item is currently in play and you’re messing with someone’s business. This is not like one of those threads where somebody posts a dumpster find and asks if it’s a real Santos, or someone needs clarification on a Conde model. You are grasping at tenuous straws and are presenting no creditable proof.

I would like to request that the moderators remove this thread as being potentially libellous. Whether true or not, it gives the appearance of having been posted with the intent to harm a person who has no means to defend themselves.

Sorry if I sound p*sed off, it’s because stuff like this stinks.


P.S. if you find the older thread I mentioned earlier you’ll see I came to the defence of the seller then, too. A bit of research showed he had posted years earlier about his visit to the Reyes shop where he had personally bought the guitar from Reyes. It was a sloppy looking instrument, too. That didn’t stop the OP from calling him an outright crook and fraud, however. No apologies were offered later, either. So, yeah, I don’t think there’s any place for these kinds of posts on this forum. But that’s just me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 18:59:27
 
yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to RobF

You're being unreasonable, RobF. I have presented legitimate concern over the authenticity of the guitar. Counterfeits are common in the musical instrument world. Any reasonable person would question the authenticity of a guitar that does not follow suit with other guitars from the maker since the 70s. Can you show me another Reyes guitar that has that stamp in the first post? That would certainly help support your belief that the Reyes in question is authentic. I certainly haven't found one, but I can show you over 50 Reyes guitars that have the same stamp as the one I just posted.

If you wish for this discussion to be shut down, it makes me question your intent. Are you selling the guitar? Do you know the person selling the guitar? I take counterfeit sales very personally, and anyone who defends them loses my respect.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 19:27:12
 
RobF

Posts: 1602
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

Sorry man, I don’t have to prove anything. The onus is completely upon you, whether you feels that’s reasonable or not. You have the burden of proof, not me.

As far as this thread goes, I’m done with it. I have no association with the guitar or its seller, whatsoever. Why does somebody have to be personally involved to be fair-minded? I’m just disappointed in the direction the Foro has been taking recently when it comes to discussing flamenco guitars. What you’re doing here is just a logical progression, I suppose. I don’t want to have anything more to do with it.

Also, your implication that I’m defending counterfeit sales is unfounded. In the first case, I defended a Foro member, a fellow maker, who was being called a crook and a fraud. It was subsequently shown that he was not, but by then the damage had been done. I won’t make any pronouncements on the current listing save to say you have presented no proof, and are harming someone’s reputation in the process. Sorry if I don’t like that, and honestly I couldn’t care less if you respect me or not for defending the guy. You come across like an internet vigilante on this one. Not saying that’s how you always are, but that’s how it plays at the moment. Even if it’s proven to be a fake, that’s how it’s playing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 19:38:52
 
yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to RobF

Before you go, RobF, look at these two stamps next to each other. One is from the guitar in question, and one is from all other Reyes guitars I've seen since the 70s. What reasonable explanation would you give for Reyes to decide one day back in '98 to change his stamp for a single guitar?

I have a reasonable explanation, but it's not the one you're open to accepting. If someone has a better explanation, I'd really love to hear it! By the way, the stamp is not the only thing that raises a red flag, but it's definitely one that can be clearly seen. Experts and non experts, please chime in if you've ever seen the questionable stamp on an authentic Reyes.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 20:03:35
 
RobF

Posts: 1602
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

There is no doubt that those are different stamps, not just ink saturation differences. Please do not make assumptions on what or what not I’m open to accepting.

My beef is with the tone of the first post, where the presumption of foul play was presented with the request for confirmation. This kind of thing happens all the time all over the internet. Go to a Gibson or Fender forum. There’s always some wag who’ll jump in and pronounce a guitar as fake and then you look at the guitar and realize it’s all BS. Same thing with this guitar. I don’t like the lack of polish on the edges of the sound hole either. The plantilla also throws me, it’s more like an Hernandez y Aguado. But Reyes himself is on record as saying he wanted to try a plantilla like that. Also, the Reyes from the other thread looked just as bad, and it was purchased directly from Reyes. We love to elevate the expensive masters to some god-like level but in the end they were just men making good guitars. Often lots of them and often with the help of assistants and apprentices.

I maintain that when someone has concerns about an instrument actively in play, the ethical approach does not include fishing through forums looking for backup in the hopes to nail the seller to a figurative cross. There are better ways to go about it. It’s not for me to decide how members use the Foro. If I don’t like it I can leave, I guess. I’ve put my time in here and whenever it comes to discussing guitars I’ve always attempted to be informative and accurate. I just think there’s a better way to approach this than using the Foro to crusade against Reverb sellers. Maybe the guy is a crook who doesn’t even own the guitar, who knows? If he’s not, however, then the Foro is being abused to do something that I can’t condone. But again, what I like or don’t like, or agree with or not doesn’t really matter, so I’m done here.

I don’t know why I got involved. I don’t know why I even care.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 20:58:03
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3456
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

Yourwhathurts69, I do not have the knowledge or experience with Reyes guitars to pass judgment on whether or not the guitar is counterfeit or not, and you would probably have to see it in person rather than via photos to come to a conclusion, if then. Nevertheless, you appear to be convinced that it is counterfeit and have made that allegation on the Foro. Why don't you bring your concerns up to the seller and Reverb? It seems to me that should be your first move before spreading the allegation on the Foro or other fora. Note the discrepancies, as you see them, and ask for an explanation. See what they say.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 20:58:44
 
silddx

Posts: 562
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to RobF

quote:

I don’t know why I got involved. I don’t know why I even care.


It's good, and it is really nice that you care.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 21:32:24
 
silddx

Posts: 562
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

If it is a wrong'un, and I have no idea if it is or not, the seller is almost certainly not aware of it, otherwise they would likely not have posted those photos.

Why don't you ask the seller if it's been verified as genuine and if they can send you the evidence.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 21:36:48
 
yourwhathurts69

 

Posts: 115
Joined: Sep. 16 2009
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

For all those riled up by the initial post, I've edited it so there is no longer a link to any seller. Does that help to make everyone happy? Can we now address the authenticity of the guitar? What do you make of the anomalies?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 22:04:04
 
RobF

Posts: 1602
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

quote:

For all those riled up by the initial post, I've edited it so there is no longer a link to any seller.


That actually does make a difference.

Here’s a link to a site with a ton of Reyes labels:

https://www.flamenco-guitar.net/museum/manuel-reyes/labels/

A quick glance shows he did use white labels that, to my eyes as well, give the appearance of being photocopies. But the site shows that colours of his labels are all over the map.

As far as the stamps go, it is apparent that he employed more than one. Your example is clearly shown and can be distinguished by the use of serif letters for his name. But if you look at the older stamps, for example the one from 1971, the letters are san serif, like on the stamp of the guitar posted on Reverb. So it’s not a given that he discarded his old stamps. He might have simply misplaced his current stamp and grabbed an old one from a drawer or something and used it. He might have got a new one in and realized the fonts weren’t right and tossed it after a couple of uses, who knows? That’s how things can go in guitar making shops. Honest.

The signature is tougher, as it looks like it was done through the soundhole. It’s hard to know what to say about that. I think examining the guitar in person is more reliable as makers will have elements in the woodwork that can provide more accurate signatures (eg. brace carving style, centre strip grain orientation, liner execution, foot and heel carving, head blend to neck, etc. that all really counts a lot).

I think contacting the seller with your concerns is a good approach. True, he could just string you a line, but he might also be able to provide solid proof of authenticity. He would likely want to do so with a serious buyer. It’s not like the thing is going for peanuts.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 22:37:33
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1108
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

I think the guitar is a genuine Reyes but the label. My actual guess is for a Reyes hijo.
The guy just replaced the label to sell the guitar at the father’s price.
Rosette is authentic as the center strip made with cypress, the stamp and the hhglue, as pointed correctly by Estebana.
The photocopied label is the best proof the guitar is not a fake otherwise they would have taken more care with the printing: what’s the point in making a perfect rosette and to use a mere photocopy for the label?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2023 23:17:35
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3416
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

My policy is to have an expensive guitar appraised by an expert before I even negotiate with the seller.

Richard Bruné told me he no longer does appraisals, due to possible legal liability. At that time he did "evaluations." I don't know what the difference may be. I would still like to have him on my side if I got into a lawsuit over a guitar. You should seek the opinion of a disinterested expert.

Bruné has said publicly that when attempting to authenticate an instrument the least weight should be given to the label. Instead attention should be paid to tool marks revealing the makers choice and employment of tools, measurement marks, the plantilla, and such actual artifacts of the process of construction.

For what it's worth, I see credible candidates for matching the label and stamp from the set linked by Robf. But do the linked labels and stamps all come from authentic Reyes? Says who? What evidence?

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2023 0:44:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14640
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to Echi

quote:

I think the guitar is a genuine Reyes but the label. My actual guess is for a Reyes hijo.
The guy just replaced the label to sell the guitar at the father’s price.
Rosette is authentic as the center strip made with cypress, the stamp and the hhglue, as pointed correctly by Estebana.
The photocopied label is the best proof the guitar is not a fake otherwise they would have taken more care with the printing: what’s the point in making a perfect rosette and to use a mere photocopy for the label?


My same thoughts when I first saw this. Reyes jr. Actually signs the label the same way, but I agree his guitar should not be going at the same fee. I first played Reyes jr in the late 90’s early 2000, and they were great, just as good as dad’s guitar. I think Antonio Rey used a jr. For the colores album which he used on TV once, and it was fantastic. He changed it, I guess, for an older one. But then the later ones were sadly not as good…I assume that this meant Jr was having a helping hand by Sr in order to establish a reputation and keep the price up. So there might be cross over where we might as well consider it Reyes Sr after all. My fingers can tell the difference so I would need to play it. It could be the exact issue with this one…it was a Jr that has been recognized as superior and needs to command the Sr fee because it is likely Sr had a hand in making it sing. Or the exact opposite, it is a Jr dud, and someone wants to pass it off as Sr. The Rosette is not helping as I have seen it on both Sr top guitars and Jr duds. (Can’t wait till Morante comes on with his story of returning Jr guitar because the intonation was off! ).

_____________________________

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2023 15:44:57
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2145
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

(Can’t wait till Morante comes on with his story of returning Jr guitar because the intonation was off! ).


No hace falta! I wouldn´t accept a Reyes Hijo as a free gift. Al carajo, padre y hiljo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2023 15:51:24
 
Mark2

Posts: 1855
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

If you think it's fishy why not just move on? There are other guitars on the market.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2023 17:25:44
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3456
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to Mark2

quote:

If you think it's fishy why not just move on? There are other guitars on the market.


My thoughts exactly. Why dwell on it unless you are interested in buying it yourself?

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2023 17:39:51
 
RobF

Posts: 1602
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to Mark2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

… why not just move on? There are other guitars on the market.


I guess that applies to me, too. I didn’t have to be such a hard-ass about it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 28 2023 22:51:55
 
estebanana

Posts: 9315
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:

(Can’t wait till Morante comes on with his story of returning Jr guitar because the intonation was off! ).


No hace falta! I wouldn´t accept a Reyes Hijo as a free gift. Al carajo, padre y hiljo.


Ole’

Would you except, hypothetically speaking, a free Stephen Faulk guitar?

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2023 0:56:12
 
estebanana

Posts: 9315
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to yourwhathurts69

quote:

ORIGINAL: yourwhathurts69

Before you go, RobF, look at these two stamps next to each other. One is from the guitar in question, and one is from all other Reyes guitars I've seen since the 70s. What reasonable explanation would you give for Reyes to decide one day back in '98 to change his stamp for a single guitar?

I have a reasonable explanation, but it's not the one you're open to accepting. If someone has a better explanation, I'd really love to hear it! By the way, the stamp is not the only thing that raises a red flag, but it's definitely one that can be clearly seen. Experts and non experts, please chime in if you've ever seen the questionable stamp on an authentic Reyes.







Given that rubber stamps are made of a degradable material and do wear out it’s entirely possible for a maker to go through two or three stamps in a career. The stamp would wear out because the rubber material will degrade and dry out over time and crack or become dust. The reason is because at a molecular level the rubber is made of different substances but basically a filler and a binder molecule. When the binder molecules break down the rubber falls apart.


Rubber stamps with your trade name and address can be custom made for 20 dollars at a stamp makers shop. I’ve had two SF stamps, but both wore out after ten years.

The label looks odd, but I’m thinking is the settings in the camera and the lighting. Incandescent lights and Fluorescent lights can affect the color, tint and saturation of color within the depth of field.

What does this all mean? Don’t trust a photo of a label to determine authenticity.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2023 1:08:10
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2145
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Counterfeit Reyes? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Would you except, hypothetically speaking, a free Stephen Faulk guitar?


No. Because I respect people with integrity I would insist on paying for it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2023 11:52:49
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