Rosettes for flamenco guitars

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Jim Frieson

Posts: 19
Joined: May 28 2014

Rosettes for flamenco guitars

I made enough mosaic for about a hundred rosettes .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2023 5:09:48

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Jim Frieson)

I like them. Lovely colorful rosettes

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 20 2023 23:34:21

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Jim Frieson)

Why?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2023 21:31:13

Jim Frieson

Posts: 19
Joined: May 28 2014

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Why ?
Capricho , why not , and there is benefit of not having to make again.

But there is also , How ?
After laminating the planks , I did not cut the strips with a saw .
Sawing wastes more than half of the material .
I cut the strips with a carefully set Japanese plane .
In effect they are shavings and I got a lot of them .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2023 4:40:52

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Jim Frieson)

Nice! Also, welcome to the Foro, if you post build updates you can be certain they’ll be followed with interest. I think you’re acquainted with my friend, Sergei, by the way, who knew you from back in your Toronto days. My nephew just finished making a couple of beautiful guitars in his shop, and so the tradition continues.

Is the white holly? It almost looks bleached.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2023 16:09:29

Ricardo

Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Jim Frieson)

As Brune (I believe?) once told me the rosette is the “last line of defense” when a crack forms due to fingerboard shrinkage and extends toward the soundhole. So in that sense, are the “shavings” thick enough like the sawed tiles???

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2023 16:58:01

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Ricardo)

They look pretty thick..maybe he just means the way he cuts them is more like shaving than sawing...

But then how think can a plane cut? I wouldn't have thought thick enough... But I'm a novice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2023 18:56:08

JasonM

Posts: 2057
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Stu)

That must be one sharp plane blade!

Question about the outer square wave motif. I guess that is from Esteso? It is made from small titles sandwiched in-between inner and outer black veneer strips right? or is there an easier way to make it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2023 19:42:29

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Stu)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

They look pretty thick..maybe he just means the way he cuts them is more like shaving than sawing...

But then how think can a plane cut? I wouldn't have thought thick enough... But I'm a novice.

No idea of how thin the slices are that Jim is doing but I think if you’re making a mosaic with a fine pixel, like in the order of 0.3mm instead of the typical 0.5mm, the plane method to make slices is likely the best way to go about it. Might also be the only practical way (saying this without ever having done them that thin myself, but a friend of mine does her rosettes that way, so at least I’ve watched it being done, lol). Ripping slices with a saw is a pain in the butt, wastes a lot of the sandwich, and final dimensioning by scraping can delaminate the slices if they are really thin or light on the glue. That being said it’s also how many (most?) people do it but the plane method makes a lot of sense, really.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2023 20:25:18

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
As Brune (I believe?) once told me the rosette is the “last line of defense” when a crack forms due to fingerboard shrinkage and extends toward the soundhole. So in that sense, are the “shavings” thick enough like the sawed tiles???

I don’t want to speak for Jim, but the bulk of the strength will come from the long-grained veneer purfling strips that encircle the mosaic elements of the rosette. I think Jim’s rosette has about 16 of those strips (look at the red stripes and white/black/white strips for examples), so lots of protection is going on there.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2023 21:32:13

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Jim Frieson)

Nice rosettes: Conde style, or at least the Greek pattern reminds the Felipe V "boca de rosas" rosettes: the flower pattern reminds me the style of other famous flamenco guitars like Gerundino or Sanchis Carpio.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2023 21:51:24

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Jim Frieson)

I see a measure of continuity going on here. This one is from 1989. I took the picture about five years ago when I evaluated the guitar for an estate. It had a very nice dry, traditional sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2023 22:29:32

estebanana

Posts: 9357
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

As Brune (I believe?) once told me the rosette is the “last line of defense” when a crack forms due to fingerboard shrinkage and extends toward the soundhole. So in that sense, are the “shavings” thick enough like the sawed tiles???

The patch under the rosette plus the rosette itself create a three ply lamination: patch/top/rosette - so even a half mm of rosette works as a ply component.

The problem I have with this system of making rosettes, Michael Thames does the same thing, it that you’re stuck with the same rosette for every guitar and there’s no flexibility for individual guitars to have a different rosette. Lots of famous makers use signature rosettes like Romanillos, but I never thought his rosette was very interesting. Daniel Friederich, I think is the only one who made the same motif that’s really fantastic. I’m with Santos, make a group of rosettes based on a theme, then change it up and move on to a new idea. I think Santos’ work is art because of this.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2023 3:04:38

Jim Frieson

Posts: 19
Joined: May 28 2014

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to RobF)

I knew a few Sergeis , but I imagine you mean Sergei de Jonge .
Knew him from the 70s . Hope he is in fine form .
Yes , holly veneer .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2023 7:28:23

Jim Frieson

Posts: 19
Joined: May 28 2014

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Ricardo)

I make rosettes at a basic thickness of 2.5mm .
After all inaccuracies of gluing are smoothed out , I still have more than 2mm thick rosettes . Plenty thick enough and thicker than commercially available rosettes .

As for weakness of knife cut strips vs sawn strips , it is notable that the veneers most makers work with are knife cut , sliced veneers .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2023 7:37:05

Jim Frieson

Posts: 19
Joined: May 28 2014

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to JasonM)

The square wave motif , an age old pattern , I made in the 90s in Toronto, intended for furniture inlay .
Just found a mess of it in one of my drawers .

A straight strip on one side holds it together .
Gluing strips on both sides , the result would be , it would be too inflexible

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2023 7:45:50

Jim Frieson

Posts: 19
Joined: May 28 2014

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to RobF)

The thinner the slice , the shaving , the easier it is to make .
In Japan where the look of hand planed wood is prized , there is a machine with a rubber conveyor belt that moves the wood under a stationary knife .
I have a small one , still hurt your back to lift the thing , but only good for light work .
A Japanese cabinet maker and I shared a shop in the 90s , and he had a great heavy one . It was pushing it , but I made shavings of Brasil rosewood on that machine 1 mm thick .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2023 8:01:10

Jim Frieson

Posts: 19
Joined: May 28 2014

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Jim Frieson)

Some of recent rosettes

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2023 8:34:33

ernandez R

Posts: 742
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Jim Frieson)

Nice work as usual Jim.

Handy hint: there is a little box to click so your photos show in line at the bottom of the text box. I always check it first or I forget ;) then upload the photos accordingly.

Any chance you have a photo or three of your tile slicing tool in action?

I make a log of sorts with my vary not traditional rosettes and I harden the face with a rub medium CA then slice in a band saw then glue the next face and saw… as a way to keep the little bits in one piece.

Myshaky hands are past the stage of fiddling with .5-.3 mm marquetry bits but I appreciate the efforts of others. That one rosette of yours Mark posted upthread from the ‘80s I actually like a lot more then your flashier ones but that’s just me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2023 8:35:32

Firefrets

Posts: 111
Joined: Mar. 22 2023

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to Jim Frieson)

Hi Jim. You've been busy again x

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2023 11:55:25

Jim Frieson

Posts: 19
Joined: May 28 2014

RE: Rosettes for flamenco guitars (in reply to ernandez R)

Cheers and Thanks ,
That little box , is it called embed ?
I am a nervous critter I guess , but it doesn't show up in my hands .
I am a gimp though ; damaged right hand , I can do the international carpenter's salute.

To cut tiles by hand I use a Tamiya razor saw or a standard Japanesei fine cut saw.
By machine ; I made a crosscut slide of plexiglass/acrilo for my little table saw , one of those 1950s Craftsman saws , and I cut the tiles with a fret slotting saw , 0.6 mm kerf .

Once the tiles are cut , there is still the edge-to-edge joint to be done .
I made a disk that is the radius of the inside of the mosaic .
I draw a line through the center , and double sided tape the disc to my cross slide , so that the line is in line with the saw .
I use that to trim the edges and it works well .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 26 2023 5:01:17