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RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco?   You are logged in as Guest
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orsonw

Posts: 1943
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to bahen

quote:

especially in the cante: the screaming, explosive yelling, etc. It's too much for my taste, so I avoid most of it most of the time (though I have a soft spot for Manuel Molina). I wish that subtlety were appreciated more...


I can understand if you don't like cante and don't listen to it; no problem. But I assure you that there is a great deal of nuance and subtlety involved.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2023 11:19:57
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14902
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to bahen

quote:

what grates on my sensibilities are the hysterics, especially in the cante: the screaming, explosive yelling, etc. It's too much for my taste, so I avoid most of it most of the time (though I have a soft spot for Manuel Molina).


Not all cante is shouting, and I also don’t like that expression that much. My favorite at the moment is Pena Hijo. Give him a try.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2023 17:19:53
 
trivium91

 

Posts: 219
Joined: Jan. 24 2022
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flame... (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

especially in the cante: the screaming, explosive yelling, etc. It's too much for my taste, so I avoid most of it most of the time (though I have a soft spot for Manuel Molina). I wish that subtlety were appreciated more...


I can understand if you don't like cante and don't listen to it; no problem. But I assure you that there is a great deal of nuance and subtlety involved.


I didn’t care for it at first either and would seek out flamenco without all the expressive cante, though it’s an integral part of flamenco as it’s all poetry. There was a really cool granainas that an old grandpa did on spains got talent with him singing, granted not screaming but pretty expressive. At any rate, the crazy singing really grew on me and now I enjoy it. Though I must confess I have listened to metal core and death metal ever since I was a kid which is basically screaming.

Anyways off topic, but this was the video
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2023 19:03:55
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1626
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to bahen

quote:

It's not that for me. It's the cheesy camera angles, the bad (and tight) clothes, the awful decor, the low brow display of rosé in the kitchen, the lousy dancing, the lip syncing, etc etc ... and then the music *facepalm*. It's a crisis of taste, and it's widespread in flamenco—and this kitsch piece from Nieto is Exhibit A, for me.

I have to say flamenco pop in the video you posted is not my thing. The fact that the music video looks low budget and is made amateurishly makes it even worse.

As for flamenco cante I've had no problem since the very beginning. The flamenco singer can sing in any way he wants. Everything is all right as long as the guitar accompaniment sounds awesome.

We don't need to understand the lyrics of flamenco cante anyway. It's not that important. Paco himself even said it at 3:30. What counts is feeling the rhythm and the guitar sound.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2023 21:34:16
 
bahen

Posts: 378
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

My favorite at the moment is Pena Hijo. Give him a try.


Cheers, will do. And I may have overstated my dislike of the explosive cante, which can indeed be very beautiful, haunting, etc.—e.g.,

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2023 14:18:37
 
Bulerias2005

 

Posts: 632
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Stu

I also do not like the word "hysterics" due to its sexist connotations (not saying at all that that was the intent here, but the word has problematic historical associations), but I understand bahen's point. I don't think it's fair to say "just listen to more cante" or that it's an acquired taste or whatever. Sure, it definitely is an acquired taste, but I would argue that the subtlety within flamenco is of a fundamentally different character than other genres -- and to go back to what I said earlier in the thread, whether we're talking about a more explosive performance or a piece with a lot of expressive nuance, I seem to have an increasingly limited capacity for the fundamental flavor/character inherent to flamenco. I have to be in the first right mood and mindset, otherwise it can seem... grating, for lack of a better term.

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Daniel Volovets
Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
http://www.danielvolovets.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2023 2:35:13
 
bahen

Posts: 378
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Bulerias2005

quote:

I also do not like the word "hysterics" due to its sexist connotations (not saying at all that that was the intent here, but the word has problematic historical associations)


Agreed, my apologies. I struggled to think of another word at the time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2023 11:02:11
 
kitarist

Posts: 1718
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to orsonw

I don't like it that, within a sung piece, each copla is its own thing unrelated to others instead of telling one coherent longer story throughout. So cante is simultaneously most important and also apparently not worth bothering telling a story with.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2023 19:00:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14902
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

I don't like it that, within a sung piece, each copla is its own thing unrelated to others instead of telling one coherent longer story throughout. So cante is simultaneously most important and also apparently not worth bothering telling a story with.


While considered “pre-flamenco” by some people, the Romances/corridas are set up exactly like that….the lines of verse connect to tell a story. I don’t consider it “pre-flamenco” myself, at least the manner it was interpreted in rito y Geografia.

Some smart cantaores will actually arrange the letras such that they are relevant to a current situation…meaning a single solea can have various letras and although meant to be non specific, they can be manipulated by replacing a specific noun here or there, so, to those in the room that understand the singer IS telling a story. That is the beauty of the improvisational freedom the format allows, and there are no rules about it. However, it doesn’t really work unless the listeners are familiar with the original letras AND the situation too.

It is not much different than sending a pop song to a loved one or friend, that has relevant lyrics to their personal situation.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2023 22:31:17
 
estebanana

Posts: 9385
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to orsonw

Hysteria is a perfectly good word which has meaning we can use. Yes when hysteria is used to describe a physiological or supposed neurological disorder that it’s misused. It’s not an inherently sexist word.

‘ the crowd when into mass hysteria when goal keeper missed a kick and the European cup was won by Romania ‘

Perfectly good use of hysteria. We at also wouldn’t want to clip the wings of hysterical or hysteria. Especially if hysteria is used sarcastically or ironically.

In language in academia we are getting too carried away with policing words. It’s scary if you ask me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 0:11:02
 
estebanana

Posts: 9385
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to orsonw

I’m more on the side of letras being like snapshots that a singer uses, but I’m also with Ricardo on this because singers also construct narratives by stitching letras together. This is a major part of why flamenco is such a versatile form even though it exists in a sort of closed loop from other musics.

But I’ll stand by my thing, smoking is the only part of flamenco I don’t like. I’m a militant anti smoker. I don’t want to breathe that sh!t in my airspace. It makes me hysterical.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 0:16:03
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3461
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Hysteria is a perfectly good word which has meaning we can use. In language in academia we are getting too carried away with policing words. It’s scary if you ask me.


Yes, particularly in academia, where our society's unending grievances and sense of victimization is magnified by identity politics, where each and every sub-group has manufactured a list of words and phases that were never meant to be derogatory but have been declared so by the arbiters of "wokeness." Woe to him or her who challenges the new orthodoxy, for he (she) shall be cast out into the wilderness and risk losing his (her) tenured position.

As Henry Kissinger once observed: "The politics of academia are so bitter because the stakes are so small."

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 2:19:24
 
estebanana

Posts: 9385
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to BarkellWH

Bill,

I sense the horseshoe principle in effect. The grievance politics of right wing cable news and the self- righteousness of so called progressives in academia are meeting in unexpected intent the ends of the horseshoe. While the majority of the rest of us are meeting and mixing it up in the arc of the shoe.

Having come from the academic side I’m disgusted at the absurdity of the academic bullies in the far left as much as I am sick of the nationalist victim politics of the white far right. Both strains of extremism are idiotic.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 3:21:47
 
estebanana

Posts: 9385
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to orsonw

In flamenco I dislike click tracks and palmas click tracks- canned palmas. There’s a thing that’s legitimately annoying. Give me the rapping of knuckles on live wooden tables and bit of spilled manzanilla.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 3:31:53
 
Bulerias2005

 

Posts: 632
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to orsonw

I didn't intend to derail the thread, but just to clarify what I meant, I didn't mean that the word "hysteria" was somehow off limits nor was I trying to police anyone's language -- nothing to do with "wokeness" or identity politics, just that in this context "hysterics" evoked certain connotations. You can rest assured that I wasn't offended, nor is anyone losing their tenured position. I also can't stand stuffy academics, so we're on the same page there.

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Daniel Volovets
Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
http://www.danielvolovets.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 4:59:01
 
estebanana

Posts: 9385
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to orsonw

Okay, so long as nobody goes into hysterics over it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 6:59:59
 
bahen

Posts: 378
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Hysteria is a perfectly good word which has meaning we can use. Yes when hysteria is used to describe a physiological or supposed neurological disorder that it’s misused. It’s not an inherently sexist word.


i.e., 'A perfectly good use of the word which I insist—really, insist!—has absolutely, positively and utterly *nothing* to do with the word's etymology or history of use! I insist!'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 10:58:07
 
bahen

Posts: 378
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Bulerias2005

quote:

I didn't intend to derail the thread, but just to clarify what I meant, I didn't mean that the word "hysteria" was somehow off limits nor was I trying to police anyone's language -- nothing to do with "wokeness" or identity politics, just that in this context "hysterics" evoked certain connotations. You can rest assured that I wasn't offended, nor is anyone losing their tenured position. I also can't stand stuffy academics, so we're on the same page there.


I didn't take it as policing, and was happy to be reminded.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 10:59:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14902
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to estebanana

This is hysterical.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 12:01:28
 
estebanana

Posts: 9385
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to orsonw

I said physiological of course you know I meant psychological. It was a a Freudian slip on a Jungian banana peel.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 14:16:59
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3461
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Having come from the academic side I’m disgusted at the absurdity of the academic bullies in the far left as much as I am sick of the nationalist victim politics of the white far right. Both strains of extremism are idiotic.


Ignorance cuts across the ideological divide. We are becoming a nation of whiners and ranters, whether it be the far left or the far right, although the far right seems to hold the most ridiculous conspiracy theories. (Nevertheless, both appear evenly divided in believing that the 9/11 attacks were an "inside job" perpetrated by the US government.)

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2023 14:39:17
 
estebanana

Posts: 9385
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to orsonw

True Bill, but let us menace the anti political parties in the off topic section!

I say the most annoying thing in flamenco is canned or canned sounding palmas. I want live organic free range grass fed palmas, not cage raised palmas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2023 4:12:50
 
marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to orsonw

Performing solo. I do it sometimes but I only really play guitar so i can be around dancers and singers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2023 13:46:49
 
Mark2

Posts: 1883
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to marduk

David Serva was once asked if he preferred playing solo or with others and he replied "Well, if you play solo you get to keep all the money"


quote:

ORIGINAL: marduk

Performing solo. I do it sometimes but I only really play guitar so i can be around dancers and singers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2023 16:33:25
 
marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to Mark2

quote:

David Serva was once asked if he preferred playing solo or with others and he replied "Well, if you play solo you get to keep all the money"

I have given the young dancers from the studio permission to randomly crash my solo gigs and dance so I usually give the cash to them
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2023 20:43:48
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1900
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to orsonw

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 30 2023 0:04:09
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1626
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

I don't understand why flamenco singers go in that direction artistically instead of sticking with real flamenco. Manuela is so good in this video.
Btw, does anyone know how to play the opening part at 0:40-0:55?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 30 2023 20:10:04
 
silddx

Posts: 573
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to devilhand

Probably because they are told to.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 30 2023 21:35:33
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14902
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to silddx

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

Probably because they are told to.


By who exactly?

People need to realize the amount of flamenco that goes on that is not for public consumption in recorded form. If an artist records all the palos once, what is left? Another album of solea and another, just to please consumers? Then what happens when aficionados say, “oh she recorded that style already”? Flamenco was always a traditional and familial musical expression, where there is much deliberate repetition and the recording industry never functioned like that. The most comical is the attempt to put “titles” on cantes other than palo forms, as if that would make them unique entities or “songs”. You guys who criticize (Devilhand mainly) what little exposure some of these artists get because it is not the flamenco that suits your taste need to get more inside the world.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2023 11:44:26
 
Auda

 

Posts: 248
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
 

RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (in reply to devilhand

What I don't like is having to play 10 hours a day to play marginally well. If I have not kept up with it then I have to play 2 to 3 weeks before I start to get comfortable again.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2023 21:49:37
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