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Flamenco harmony for theory freaks! (or musical illiterate freaks)
I just found this channel on youtube about flamenco harmony. It seems that the guy knows what he´s talking about, but I really can´t give my opinion because my knowledge of theory is quite basic. Maybe Ricardo o anyone else who knows about this can have a look and let us know if all this is correct? I´d like to start learning a bit more on this subject. The videos are all in Spanish, nice examples with letras and musical notation. I have to warn you guys for his singing... hehehe
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to koenie17)
Ok...first he uses a jazz guitar to play some chords that aren't flamenco and names them with Roman Numerals (what you do for classical music analysis more often)...as if in C major though...he want' Phrygian (eye roll)... Next cante and accomp in ABSOLUTE KEY notation (wtf?)....at 7 minutes he talks about the b5 uses in cante por Solea...proceeds to sing Jaleos and deliver the wrong tono. (The "b5" is honestly just the dominant 7th (C7) from key of F...basically the V7/II in his Phrygian key). The point being it's not functioning as "b5" in E so it's not really relevant. Even if you use the chord he does, it's just plagel cadence in F major right there (the cambio of the letra), so I basically turned it off at that point. Hope the rest was interesting..
RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to Kevin)
quote:
I forgot how hostile people are to music theory here, lol
I hope it wasn´t for the title.... I didn´t mean it to be ofensive in any way! So if anyone took this in a negative way then I apologise.
I never learned theory the proper way, before flamenco I used to noodle some blues and rock music but nothing special. Flamenco I´m learning the traditional way which is ok for me, just sometimes wish I could understand things better. I´ve got a friend who´s really great at playing all these crazy chords/voicings and scales. But when he starts explaing I get lost quickly Just playing and jamming together I learn a lot from him.
quote:
at 7 minutes he talks about the b5 uses in cante por Solea...proceeds to sing Jaleos and deliver the wrong tono.
quote:
I warned you about the singing...
Either way I´ll give the guy credit for the video, I like the idea of the letra and the chords with the examples. It just got all a bit too complicated for me, I think flamenco is a lot more simple than that.
RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to koenie17)
I think that everything that's relevant in flamenco can be well explained by spanish guitarists such as Herrero. He's very clear in the way he explains things, too. Thanks for both videos
RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to koenie17)
quote:
ORIGINAL: koenie17
I just found this channel on youtube about flamenco harmony. It seems that the guy knows what he´s talking about, but I really can´t give my opinion because my knowledge of theory is quite basic. Maybe Ricardo o anyone else who knows about this can have a look and let us know if all this is correct? I´d like to start learning a bit more on this subject. The videos are all in Spanish, nice examples with letras and musical notation. I have to warn you guys for his singing... hehehe
Dominantes secundarios V7/bII y V7/bVI y tension bIII#9)
ehhh... do you mean 6 por medio?? jajaja
This guy's channel has another video about a flamenco tonality. The first video in his youtube channel. What does he mean by a secondary relative minor tonality? Can we really use it to explain flamenco harmony?
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
This guy's channel has another video about a flamenco tonality. The first video in his youtube channel. What does he mean by a secondary relative minor tonality? Can we really use it to explain flamenco harmony?
You can use many ways to “explain” flamenco harmony, but it is contingent on the fact you understand the system the terminology is BORROWED FROM. In flamenco, you should be learning harmony via accompanying cante and don’t play the wrong chords at the wrong time, etc. And apply that harmonic concept to baile as well, to understand deep the rhythmic language at work. Both of these can be explained by other systems, for example this guy is coming from Jazz/Western Classical…so he is SPEAKING to an audience that already grasps those systems (i.e. he is speaking to ME and not YOU!! ). And so I totally get where he is coming from. I have dropped comments on his other vids where he has made errors (IMO) due to certain specific exceptions that appear in practice (for example his concept of 5+7 compas, or labeling Buleria Larga as a “Solea” melody). For the most part I don’t have a problem, because I understand relative keys and modes (I have tried to point to the simplicity of the Circle of 5ths, but people don’t want to understand this “weird round stuff”).
The reason he says “relative minor” for what we know is Phrygian, is because Phrygian, LIKE DORIAN, from a jazz perspective, is a MINOR MODE, due to the minor third degree. So E Dorian uses F# and C#, E Aeolian uses F# sharp, and E Phrygian uses no sharps or flats, and if you want to add Locrian, it uses a flat 5th, otherwise still considered “minor”. So in key of C major you have two relative major modes (F lydian, G mixolydian) and 4 relative minor modes (D dorian, A Aeolian, E Phrygian, and B Locrian). Since “Dorian” is not considered a “key” he is referring to relative minor (A Aeolian), and the SECONDARY MINOR is E Phrygian. He is basically admitting, without admitting openly, that he views E Phrygian not as a simple relative mode (because he would be leaving out the other TWO minor modes), but as a “key”. I agree with him in this regard, however, as a jazz guy he is not clearly saying THAT specific thing.
Now, I know people’s panties bunch up at “minor mode” because in flamenco we apply a G# to the tonic triad (E Major), then here come out of the wood work all the synthetic scales and Arabic high jazz, etc etc. People need to understand that with KEYS not modes, you have cadences where the tonic chord, major or minor, would have a final major third. Meaning music in A minor will finally end on an A MAJOR chord despite all the rest that happened in the music. (See Bach well temp clavier all the minor key preludes and fugues where you can quantify how many times he ends the minor keys with a major chord). This practice is referred to as a “Picardy Third”, but jazz guys don’t use that terminology, but they otherwise understand that is what is happening with Phrygian in these flamenco cases (assuming they understand flamenco at all). A good example is Miles Davis, I showed recently and zero comments on it, where He and Trane play F naturals melodically, but the D chord the piano plays uses F#….again it occurs as a normal tension over the Eb chord (Eb over a D bass note). So jazz guys know what is going on, but they use their own terminology, or relate it to loose “bluesy” concepts where you get away with whatever “feels right”. So keep in mind, flamenco has its own system in place. If flamenco is what you want to learn, DO THAT. If you later want to understand how or why it operates, in context of western music, then first learn western music (classical jazz, rock, whatever you want). To understand this dude, you need some jazz chops.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco harmony for theory frea... (in reply to devilhand)
I pointed out what the guy said, horses mouth. Don’t argue about it further.
Joe Pass wrote a tune called “Paco de Lucia”. He is a freaking Jazz guy using “jazz terms”. I doubt he is thinking the same way as this guy from Cadiz, here is his homage to the Flamenco maestro:
It is in the minor key, obviously, I would like to see his “secondary minor” anything example (EDIT SEE BELOW THE RED IT LINK).
Your Turn arounds with passing chords in (..) that I have added that are typical, and the important one you missed:
C major: C maj7 {(E7) Am7 Dm7 G7, Cmaj7}, etc.
A minor : Am7 (Dm7) G7 Cmaj7} (C7) Fmaj7 (B7alt) {E7b9, Am7, etc.
E Phrygian/Flamenco : E {(E7) Am (Dm7) G7 (C} or C7) F F7 (tritone sub of B7 alt, or Augmented 6th of choice), E, etc.
Maybe it is not clear, but all three “turn arounds” derive from the same progression of 4ths of a shared key signature (weird round stuff). It is absolutely false to continue pushing that such a progression is the BASIS or defining progression, of any of the three specific uses. It is only a shared principle of the nature of music in general. What defines the three keys is ONLY THE FINAL TWO chords, which are the actual “cadence”. G7-C, E7-Am, or F7-E. The end. The rest is filler based on shared notes of the key signature.
Here is a “deep” discussion about the Joe Pass mentality, where several smart guys correctly deduce the term refers to Phrygian (in the example, natural Phrygian scale), in this case A Phrygian relative to F major. The comments are great. But again, NOT what the Guy from Cadiz is on about. The difference is between a SCALE application (Joe Pass example) vs. a FUNCTIONAL KEY CENTER FOR AN ENTIRE PIECE OF MUSIC (Flamenco, Soleá, etc.)!!!! https://www.reddit.com/r/jazztheory/comments/s391zv/secondary_relative_minor_what_does_this_mean/
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