RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Full Version)

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orsonw -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 14 2023 11:19:57)

quote:

especially in the cante: the screaming, explosive yelling, etc. It's too much for my taste, so I avoid most of it most of the time (though I have a soft spot for Manuel Molina). I wish that subtlety were appreciated more...


I can understand if you don't like cante and don't listen to it; no problem. But I assure you that there is a great deal of nuance and subtlety involved.



Ricardo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 14 2023 17:19:53)

quote:

what grates on my sensibilities are the hysterics, especially in the cante: the screaming, explosive yelling, etc. It's too much for my taste, so I avoid most of it most of the time (though I have a soft spot for Manuel Molina).


Not all cante is shouting, and I also don’t like that expression that much. My favorite at the moment is Pena Hijo. Give him a try.



trivium91 -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco?i can (Jan. 14 2023 19:03:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

quote:

especially in the cante: the screaming, explosive yelling, etc. It's too much for my taste, so I avoid most of it most of the time (though I have a soft spot for Manuel Molina). I wish that subtlety were appreciated more...


I can understand if you don't like cante and don't listen to it; no problem. But I assure you that there is a great deal of nuance and subtlety involved.


I didn’t care for it at first either and would seek out flamenco without all the expressive cante, though it’s an integral part of flamenco as it’s all poetry. There was a really cool granainas that an old grandpa did on spains got talent with him singing, granted not screaming but pretty expressive. At any rate, the crazy singing really grew on me and now I enjoy it. Though I must confess I have listened to metal core and death metal ever since I was a kid which is basically screaming.

Anyways off topic, but this was the video



devilhand -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 14 2023 21:34:16)

quote:

It's not that for me. It's the cheesy camera angles, the bad (and tight) clothes, the awful decor, the low brow display of rosé in the kitchen, the lousy dancing, the lip syncing, etc etc ... and then the music *facepalm*. It's a crisis of taste, and it's widespread in flamenco—and this kitsch piece from Nieto is Exhibit A, for me.

I have to say flamenco pop in the video you posted is not my thing. The fact that the music video looks low budget and is made amateurishly makes it even worse.

As for flamenco cante I've had no problem since the very beginning. The flamenco singer can sing in any way he wants. Everything is all right as long as the guitar accompaniment sounds awesome.

We don't need to understand the lyrics of flamenco cante anyway. It's not that important. Paco himself even said it at 3:30. What counts is feeling the rhythm and the guitar sound.




bahen -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 15 2023 14:18:37)

quote:

My favorite at the moment is Pena Hijo. Give him a try.


Cheers, will do. And I may have overstated my dislike of the explosive cante, which can indeed be very beautiful, haunting, etc.—e.g.,




Bulerias2005 -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 16 2023 2:35:13)

I also do not like the word "hysterics" due to its sexist connotations (not saying at all that that was the intent here, but the word has problematic historical associations), but I understand bahen's point. I don't think it's fair to say "just listen to more cante" or that it's an acquired taste or whatever. Sure, it definitely is an acquired taste, but I would argue that the subtlety within flamenco is of a fundamentally different character than other genres -- and to go back to what I said earlier in the thread, whether we're talking about a more explosive performance or a piece with a lot of expressive nuance, I seem to have an increasingly limited capacity for the fundamental flavor/character inherent to flamenco. I have to be in the first right mood and mindset, otherwise it can seem... grating, for lack of a better term.



bahen -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 17 2023 11:02:11)

quote:

I also do not like the word "hysterics" due to its sexist connotations (not saying at all that that was the intent here, but the word has problematic historical associations)


Agreed, my apologies. I struggled to think of another word at the time.



kitarist -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 17 2023 19:00:03)

I don't like it that, within a sung piece, each copla is its own thing unrelated to others instead of telling one coherent longer story throughout. So cante is simultaneously most important and also apparently not worth bothering telling a story with. [;)]



Ricardo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 17 2023 22:31:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

I don't like it that, within a sung piece, each copla is its own thing unrelated to others instead of telling one coherent longer story throughout. So cante is simultaneously most important and also apparently not worth bothering telling a story with. [;)]


While considered “pre-flamenco” by some people, the Romances/corridas are set up exactly like that….the lines of verse connect to tell a story. I don’t consider it “pre-flamenco” myself, at least the manner it was interpreted in rito y Geografia.

Some smart cantaores will actually arrange the letras such that they are relevant to a current situation…meaning a single solea can have various letras and although meant to be non specific, they can be manipulated by replacing a specific noun here or there, so, to those in the room that understand the singer IS telling a story. That is the beauty of the improvisational freedom the format allows, and there are no rules about it. However, it doesn’t really work unless the listeners are familiar with the original letras AND the situation too.

It is not much different than sending a pop song to a loved one or friend, that has relevant lyrics to their personal situation.



estebanana -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 0:11:02)

Hysteria is a perfectly good word which has meaning we can use. Yes when hysteria is used to describe a physiological or supposed neurological disorder that it’s misused. It’s not an inherently sexist word.

‘ the crowd when into mass hysteria when goal keeper missed a kick and the European cup was won by Romania ‘

Perfectly good use of hysteria. We at also wouldn’t want to clip the wings of hysterical or hysteria. Especially if hysteria is used sarcastically or ironically.

In language in academia we are getting too carried away with policing words. It’s scary if you ask me.



estebanana -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 0:16:03)

I’m more on the side of letras being like snapshots that a singer uses, but I’m also with Ricardo on this because singers also construct narratives by stitching letras together. This is a major part of why flamenco is such a versatile form even though it exists in a sort of closed loop from other musics.

But I’ll stand by my thing, smoking is the only part of flamenco I don’t like. I’m a militant anti smoker. I don’t want to breathe that sh!t in my airspace. It makes me hysterical.



BarkellWH -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 2:19:24)

quote:

Hysteria is a perfectly good word which has meaning we can use. In language in academia we are getting too carried away with policing words. It’s scary if you ask me.


Yes, particularly in academia, where our society's unending grievances and sense of victimization is magnified by identity politics, where each and every sub-group has manufactured a list of words and phases that were never meant to be derogatory but have been declared so by the arbiters of "wokeness." Woe to him or her who challenges the new orthodoxy, for he (she) shall be cast out into the wilderness and risk losing his (her) tenured position.

As Henry Kissinger once observed: "The politics of academia are so bitter because the stakes are so small."

Bill



estebanana -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 3:21:47)

Bill,

I sense the horseshoe principle in effect. The grievance politics of right wing cable news and the self- righteousness of so called progressives in academia are meeting in unexpected intent the ends of the horseshoe. While the majority of the rest of us are meeting and mixing it up in the arc of the shoe.

Having come from the academic side I’m disgusted at the absurdity of the academic bullies in the far left as much as I am sick of the nationalist victim politics of the white far right. Both strains of extremism are idiotic.



estebanana -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 3:31:53)

In flamenco I dislike click tracks and palmas click tracks- canned palmas. There’s a thing that’s legitimately annoying. Give me the rapping of knuckles on live wooden tables and bit of spilled manzanilla.



Bulerias2005 -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 4:59:01)

I didn't intend to derail the thread, but just to clarify what I meant, I didn't mean that the word "hysteria" was somehow off limits nor was I trying to police anyone's language -- nothing to do with "wokeness" or identity politics, just that in this context "hysterics" evoked certain connotations. You can rest assured that I wasn't offended, nor is anyone losing their tenured position. [;)] I also can't stand stuffy academics, so we're on the same page there.



estebanana -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 6:59:59)

Okay, so long as nobody goes into hysterics over it.



bahen -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 10:58:07)

quote:

Hysteria is a perfectly good word which has meaning we can use. Yes when hysteria is used to describe a physiological or supposed neurological disorder that it’s misused. It’s not an inherently sexist word.


i.e., 'A perfectly good use of the word which I insist—really, insist!—has absolutely, positively and utterly *nothing* to do with the word's etymology or history of use! I insist!'



bahen -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 10:59:21)

quote:

I didn't intend to derail the thread, but just to clarify what I meant, I didn't mean that the word "hysteria" was somehow off limits nor was I trying to police anyone's language -- nothing to do with "wokeness" or identity politics, just that in this context "hysterics" evoked certain connotations. You can rest assured that I wasn't offended, nor is anyone losing their tenured position. I also can't stand stuffy academics, so we're on the same page there.


I didn't take it as policing, and was happy to be reminded.



Ricardo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 12:01:28)

This is hysterical.



estebanana -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 14:16:59)

I said physiological of course you know I meant psychological. It was a a Freudian slip on a Jungian banana peel.



BarkellWH -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 18 2023 14:39:17)

quote:

Having come from the academic side I’m disgusted at the absurdity of the academic bullies in the far left as much as I am sick of the nationalist victim politics of the white far right. Both strains of extremism are idiotic.


Ignorance cuts across the ideological divide. We are becoming a nation of whiners and ranters, whether it be the far left or the far right, although the far right seems to hold the most ridiculous conspiracy theories. (Nevertheless, both appear evenly divided in believing that the 9/11 attacks were an "inside job" perpetrated by the US government.)

Bill



estebanana -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 19 2023 4:12:50)

True Bill, but let us menace the anti political parties in the off topic section!

I say the most annoying thing in flamenco is canned or canned sounding palmas. I want live organic free range grass fed palmas, not cage raised palmas.



marduk -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 19 2023 13:46:49)

Performing solo. I do it sometimes but I only really play guitar so i can be around dancers and singers



Mark2 -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 19 2023 16:33:25)

David Serva was once asked if he preferred playing solo or with others and he replied "Well, if you play solo you get to keep all the money"


quote:

ORIGINAL: marduk

Performing solo. I do it sometimes but I only really play guitar so i can be around dancers and singers



marduk -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 19 2023 20:43:48)

quote:

David Serva was once asked if he preferred playing solo or with others and he replied "Well, if you play solo you get to keep all the money"

I have given the young dancers from the studio permission to randomly crash my solo gigs and dance so I usually give the cash to them



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 30 2023 0:04:09)




devilhand -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 30 2023 20:10:04)

I don't understand why flamenco singers go in that direction artistically instead of sticking with real flamenco. Manuela is so good in this video.
Btw, does anyone know how to play the opening part at 0:40-0:55?




silddx -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 30 2023 21:35:33)

Probably because they are told to.



Ricardo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Jan. 31 2023 11:44:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

Probably because they are told to.


By who exactly?

People need to realize the amount of flamenco that goes on that is not for public consumption in recorded form. If an artist records all the palos once, what is left? Another album of solea and another, just to please consumers? Then what happens when aficionados say, “oh she recorded that style already”? Flamenco was always a traditional and familial musical expression, where there is much deliberate repetition and the recording industry never functioned like that. The most comical is the attempt to put “titles” on cantes other than palo forms, as if that would make them unique entities or “songs”. You guys who criticize (Devilhand mainly) what little exposure some of these artists get because it is not the flamenco that suits your taste need to get more inside the world.



Auda -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 11 2023 21:49:37)

What I don't like is having to play 10 hours a day to play marginally well. If I have not kept up with it then I have to play 2 to 3 weeks before I start to get comfortable again.



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