RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Full Version)

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Ricardo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 13 2023 13:25:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auda

What I don't like is having to play 10 hours a day to play marginally well. If I have not kept up with it then I have to play 2 to 3 weeks before I start to get comfortable again.


Finally something I agree with…however I would qualify this with SOLO GUITAR playing, because accompanying cante does not require a lot of this hard work once you know how to do it. But at the same time, I must admit I did not mind spending that time when I was younger, it is only now I have gigs and family etc., that to keep it up is tedious. When dance shows happen where I need new music and choreography to memorize, it is in the same mental category as Solo guitar playing, even if it is physically not as hard. The hours are again needed for memorization of the new material, and finding the time is tough these days.



estebanana -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 13 2023 17:15:56)

I agree with this too. It’s difficult to keep your playing to a level ( at least me) where you can stand to hear yourself play.
Chuscales probably thinks similarly, he told me “ the guitar is a friend, but if you ignore it for one day, it will ignore you for two weeks”.



Bulerias2005 -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 13 2023 18:04:21)

I don't agree with the 10 hours a day thing. I know that number is probably an exaggeration but I've always stood by the idea that anything over 5 hours a day of practice makes me wonder about that person's practice efficiency. I guess everyone is different but I've never needed anywhere close to that to memorize new material etc and I just don't have the attention span to do one thing for that long in a day. I have spent that long working on new compositions/arrangements, though, but I don't really consider that "practice."

I'll also make an argument for practice away from one's instrument -- I find that when I am on the wards and have some free time, I can visualize myself playing pieces and actually work through material -- this is most effective for things I've learned before and am remembering again after a while, but I've sometimes done it for relatively new things I had learned recently. There is actually data on this that suggests activation of the relevant motor cortex areas from visualization alone, which corroborated what I had known for myself for years. Pretty cool.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747442/



estebanana -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 13 2023 18:33:14)

Three hours a day is a good amount of time. Ten hours is too much except for short periods of intense exportation, or when a pro is getting ready for a senior concert or an orchestra audition. Or you’re a teenager.

Pablo Casals asked his students to practice 3 and half hours a day. Philip Roshegar was the first American to win the Santiago de Compostela competition ( I think 1968) he was studying with Jose Tomas in Madrid for a couple years. He told Tomas he was practicing 8 to 10 hours and Tomas told him to stop. He said he was practicing his mistakes and learning them deeper. He brought it down to 5 or 6 and won the competition that year.

Philip died five years ago, but I used to listen to him play in a bar in Berkeley every Wednesday night. Between playing three of four sets he’d hold forth at the bar and teach while everyone drank pints. He talked about music and guitar playing all night as if it were a guitar graduate seminar class. He was a bit of a tragic figure, but a giant of the guitar. I miss hearing him play.



JohnWalshGuitar -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 13 2023 18:43:29)

This point exactly. Once you have kids, it is not possible to practice the way you could before. It is hard even finding time to get short sessions in and that is only at night when you are already exhausted.
Same applies to finding time to compose, which for me is a more time-intensive pursuit.

quote:

Finally something I agree with…however I would qualify this with SOLO GUITAR playing, because accompanying cante does not require a lot of this hard work once you know how to do it. But at the same time, I must admit I did not mind spending that time when I was younger, it is only now I have gigs and family etc., that to keep it up is tedious. When dance shows happen where I need new music and choreography to memorize, it is in the same mental category as Solo guitar playing, even if it is physically not as hard. The hours are again needed for memorization of the new material, and finding the time is tough these days.



devilhand -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 13 2023 21:29:41)

quote:

I'll also make an argument for practice away from one's instrument -- I find that when I am on the wards and have some free time, I can visualize myself playing pieces and actually work through material -- this is most effective for things I've learned before and am remembering again after a while, but I've sometimes done it for relatively new things I had learned recently. There is actually data on this that suggests activation of the relevant motor cortex areas from visualization alone, which corroborated what I had known for myself for years. Pretty cool.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747442/

Glad you mentioned it. Thanks for the link. I'm gonna read it through. My fav topic when it comes to practicing.

The foro member Erik van Goch has been preaching the benefits of mental practice for years on the foro. Important thing here is one must have experienced physical sensations in your fingers. Without knowing how it feels, mental practice is not possible or useless. It makes sense. How can you practice something mentally when you haven't experienced it in real life?

quote:

Pablo Casals asked his students to practice 3 and half hours a day. Philip Roshegar was the first American to win the Santiago de Compostela competition ( I think 1968) he was studying with Jose Tomas in Madrid for a couple years. He told Tomas he was practicing 8 to 10 hours and Tomas told him to stop. He said he was practicing his mistakes and learning them deeper. He brought it down to 5 or 6 and won the competition that year.

So true. In general more than 4 hours is contraproductive. I burn out when I practice more than 3 hours a day. 3 hours include 10-20 mins rests between sets. I have 2-3 rests. Some may say it's nothing. No. It's effective. The main thing is you have to be super focused when practicing.



devilhand -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 13 2023 21:37:37)

Coming back to the topic. No one mentioned speed when playing flamenco guitar. Fast and faster... bpm 200 or 240. I don't want to hear it. My fingers and tendons hate it.
Even slow Solea has 16th note double arps. In order to play good flamenco you need at least 12 notes per second. This is insane.



Auda -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 13 2023 23:24:31)

Exception noted Ricardo. It appears to me the old players did play many hours of the day. They would get up have a fag, eat then start fiddling around. Then maybe give a lesson have more food and then get ready to play at some venue. Do their gig and then hook up with some mates and play well into the night. The next day rinse and repeat. It appears it is pretty much all they did.

I stick by my assessment. For me I have and can play 10 to 12 hours a day for fairly extended period to feel my best. Probably not to what some other person's idea of efficient but I need to keep my fingers moving for extended periods to achieve the agility that I like in order to come closer to playing at a higher level. I recall PDL giving an interview prior to going on stage where he was working out his fingers while he was answering questions. I think that evidences what I am trying to convey. But to find the time is difficult and I have not really put in the time for the last year or two. Hope that makes sense to people.

Cheers



Ricardo -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 14 2023 13:34:29)

Some folks are arguing about practice amounts in terms of time. I would say, you all have no right. It takes people different times to actually learn and refine things to their personal liking. Sometimes I spend hours playing the same thing over and over just cause I like it, or it makes me feel good. I show that Tomatito 8 minutes thing to show what I think is working for efficiency. I can learn music for WORK like that. But it is a very different thing to learn something for your own pleasure. I had to learn this thing by Roberto Castellon, a single tricky falseta, and there was very little time in the schedule for it (it might have been the case it was ok that I just let him play the darn Falseta and I just play the chords). So I had to woodshed it many hours one night. In comparison to the REST of the show, I admit I needed more than one night to have been truly comfortable. A week of many hours a day. Just the one falseta.

There was a great thing similar that happened when I played with Chuscales, Pedro Cortes and Jason McGuire. We each contributed some falsetas here and there and all had to learn their parts. Jason took the time to get my thing together in our duet, and I realized I was usually in the reverse position. He got it in less than an hour, not sure if the other two guys would have spent the time. So we each are different and trying to say 3 vs 10 hours is just not fair IMO. Maybe I am where I am cuz I did the 5 hours and PDL and Antonio Rey are where they are because they did 10+???

Here is the link to the falseta I did with Roberto:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=345133&appid=&p=1&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#345133



Auda -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 14 2023 14:31:01)

Well said.

Cheers



Auda -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 14 2023 14:34:57)

Makes me feel good not to feel like I am the only one.

Cheers



Bulerias2005 -> RE: What do you NOT like about flamenco? (Feb. 14 2023 15:25:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Some folks are arguing about practice amounts in terms of time. I would say, you all have no right. It takes people different times to actually learn and refine things to their personal liking. Sometimes I spend hours playing the same thing over and over just cause I like it, or it makes me feel good. I show that Tomatito 8 minutes thing to show what I think is working for efficiency. I can learn music for WORK like that. But it is a very different thing to learn something for your own pleasure. I had to learn this thing by Roberto Castellon, a single tricky falseta, and there was very little time in the schedule for it (it might have been the case it was ok that I just let him play the darn Falseta and I just play the chords). So I had to woodshed it many hours one night. In comparison to the REST of the show, I admit I needed more than one night to have been truly comfortable. A week of many hours a day. Just the one falseta.

There was a great thing similar that happened when I played with Chuscales, Pedro Cortes and Jason McGuire. We each contributed some falsetas here and there and all had to learn their parts. Jason took the time to get my thing together in our duet, and I realized I was usually in the reverse position. He got it in less than an hour, not sure if the other two guys would have spent the time. So we each are different and trying to say 3 vs 10 hours is just not fair IMO. Maybe I am where I am cuz I did the 5 hours and PDL and Antonio Rey are where they are because they did 10+???

Here is the link to the falseta I did with Roberto:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=345133&appid=&p=1&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#345133

Much respect Ricardo but I feel that "you have no right" is a bit excessive here. I should add a bit of context to my original post. I'm not taking issue with folks who choose to practice for longer periods of time or find that it is enjoyable or beneficial. My problem is when more academically-minded / classical guitar-focused folks argue that some amount (usually 4, 5+ hours / day) of practice time is the minimum effective. It feels arbitrary and pedantic. Have I had days where I've played for 10, hell, even 12 hours a day? Of course. I think we all have, or at least many of us. What I'm trying to say is actually I think the same thing you're trying to say -- everyone is different and needs a different amount of time for different stuff. I've just taught a fair number of people who were exclusively classical guitarists who told me they were practicing 5 or 6 hours a day and I just wasn't seeing the results, and with further discussion it was clear that their practicing wasn't efficient and they could do a lot more with less time, just more focused. I just thought back to those kind of experience when I saw "10 hours a day."

I'm also now thinking back to a time when I had just flown in to Boston to collaborate with a long-time friend on her new album, something that was going to be her Master's degree project over at Berklee. I had basically just stepped off the plane and went right to rehearsal for material I didn't really have time to look over before, and one of the pieces went into this 5/4 thing at the end that I just could NOT wrap my head around. I spent hours later that day and the next just trying to nail that transition. So I hear ya on the one falseta story!



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