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RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning)
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estebanana
Posts: 9016
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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 RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow ... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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quote:
...particularly when one looks at Putin's government in Russia, which really is a Fascist operation ruled by one man.
I have to disagree with this statement. Putin is a gangster running an ostensibly democratic nation. His regime doesn’t include any of the trappings of a fascist government.
You might want to double check what the tenets of fascist government entails. Putin’s repression of free journalism, plus the number of journalists who’ve fallen out of 12th floor windows is a fascist tenet.
Russia isn’t democratic at all.
Another fascist tenet is how Putin handles opposition to his government; by poisoning, arresting or assassination of any viable opposition candidate who could beat him in a transparent election. Putin knows good and well Navalny would whip his ass in a real election, so he tried to kill him twice, but the man is a bicho. Navalny could be a great reformer to Russia, he not dead yet.
I could go on with ten more tenets of fascist bullet points, but the most recent was making any protest of the war in Ukraine illegal. More repression, and the forced and sudden conscription of potential grunts was an authentic fascist movida.
There’s also the matter of the American basketball player held in detention on charges of having cannibus oil extract, when a month before she was detained other tourists stopped for the same offense ( trivial) were released in a few weeks. Putin is keeping the basketball player as war collateral to be used in trade deal down the line. Also deplorable and authoritarian BS.
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race ...
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Oct. 25 2022 6:10:01
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3415
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow ... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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quote:
I have to disagree with this statement. Putin is a gangster running an ostensibly democratic nation. His regime doesn’t include any of the trappings of a fascist government.
I think you are wrong on both of your points above. Putin is no more a "gangster" than was Stalin when he ruled the old Soviet Union. The USSR at that time had an "ostensibly democratic" constitution as well. The old Soviet constitution was just window dressing, as is the current Russian constitution, useful for providing cover for the dictator. Putin is a dictator who, at least until he overplayed his hand by invading Ukraine, was supported by 80 percent of the Russian population.
And to say that Putin's regime doesn't include any of the trappings of a fascist government is to demonstrate a lack of understanding of fascism. A pretty succinct definition of fascism is a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. Additionally, fascism usually looks back to a "golden age" in the history of the nation that it attempts to re-create. And it has always exalted militarism.
All of the above describe Putin's regime in spades. Putin is attempting to reassemble, at least in part, the old Soviet Russia by invading both Georgia (2008), Crimea (2014) and Ukraine (2020). Were it not for their membership in NATO, Putin would certainly have invaded the Baltic states and reincorporated them into his vision of a "Greater Russia." He refers to the breakup of the Soviet Union as "the greatest catastrophe in history." He imprisons or kills any opposition to him or his political and economic programs. He runs a centralized government every bit as autocratic as was that of Hitler and Mussolini.
To call Putin a "gangster" is to misread just how dangerous he is in the position of Russian president. He is far more than just a "gangster." He has a vision of Russia that he clearly believes in, and in attempting to realize that vision he resorts to all the tools traditionally held by fascist governments. That he has enriched himself and his closest cronies does not alter that assessment.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 25 2022 13:49:53
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Pgh_flamenco
Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow ... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
A pretty succinct definition of fascism is a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. Additionally, fascism usually looks back to a "golden age" in the history of the nation that it attempts to re-create. And it has always exalted militarism.
Russia has tried to be a democratic state since the early 1990s and it has all of the trappings of a democratic state. Fascists create social and governmental institutions to promote their ideology and agenda. There’s often a cult of personality that promotes the image of a dictator and his henchmen. The majority of the efforts of fascists are public and notorious. In contrast, gangsters control existing institutions - often in democratic countries - by controlling the people who run them through threats of violence and targeted murders. Most of what they do is covert and in general these organizations form a shadow government that operates secretly.
I don’t think Putin cares what people think about most issues, nor what they do with their time or resources, as long as they are not actively working against him. Also, Putin has benefited financially from the Russian democracy and this is directly related to letting the Russian people follow their own interests for the most part. There just aren’t enough parallels with fascism to call him a fascist or his regime fascist.
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Date Oct. 25 2022 15:31:33
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3415
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow ... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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quote:
Russia has tried to be a democratic state since the early 1990s and it has all of the trappings of a democratic state.
Russia has none of the trappings of a democratic state. There was a very brief period under Yeltsin when it had a free election, but there were not, and there still are not, embedded institutions required for a democratic state to survive. One man, Putin, controls the system, and he does so overtly, not covertly. There is no rule-of-law, no court system to which someone can appeal a case with any degree of objectivity, no free elections, as Putin decides who can and cannot run a campaign.
Putin was originally elected under the Russian constitution, but he has ensured his win in all subsequent elections through intimidation, plus he has convinced the Russian population that the West is the enemy and only he can save Russian honor, dignity, and a restoration of Russian greatness. You might recall that Hitler also came to power in accordance with the German constitution at the time. He was appointed Chancellor by President Hindenburg, because Hindenburg and others thought they could control Hitler. Democratic indeed.
No, I'm afraid you misread both Putin and Russia entirely. Putin is using all the tools that have been used by previous fascists to overtly (again, overtly, not covertly) get his way with what he thinks is a veneer of legitimacy. I repeat a paragraph from my post upthread.
Putin is attempting to reassemble, at least in part, the old Soviet Russia by invading both Georgia (2008), Crimea (2014) and Ukraine (2020). Were it not for their membership in NATO, Putin would certainly have invaded the Baltic states and reincorporated them into his vision of a "Greater Russia." He refers to the breakup of the Soviet Union as "the greatest catastrophe in history." He imprisons or kills any opposition to him or his political and economic programs. He runs a centralized government every bit as autocratic as was that of Hitler and Mussolini.
That paragraph not only describes Putin's regime, it has all the hallmarks of fascism inherent in my definition which you have quoted in your post above.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 25 2022 16:48:34
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3415
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow ... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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quote:
Russian institutions were setup under the guidelines of a federal constitution which is still in effect today. Putin strong arms the leaders of these institutions as well as business leaders. The secret police don’t arrest them and put them in camps for political prisoners.
Again, that Russian institutions were set up under the guidelines of a federal constitution still in effect today is not in question. The point is Putin does not need to scrap the constitution. Like Stalin under the old Soviet constitution, Putin uses the Russian constitution to lend a veneer of "legitimacy" to his actions. He doesn't have to "strong-arm" the leaders of these institutions because he appoints loyalists to those positions. And the secret police don't arrest political dissidents and put them into camps because the dissidents are charged with criminal activity under the court system overseen by Putin's minions, another Putin sop to "legitimacy."
Nevertheless, I always enjoy a good discussion and agree with you that we have said all there is to say on both sides, and that it is best that we agree to (agreeably!) disagree.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 25 2022 17:54:24
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Brendan
Posts: 307
Joined: Oct. 30 2010
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RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow ... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
Russia has none of the trappings of a democratic state. There was a very brief period under Yeltsin when it had a free election, but there were not, and there still are not, embedded institutions required for a democratic state to survive. One man, Putin, controls the system, and he does so overtly, not covertly. There is no rule-of-law, no court system to which someone can appeal a case with any degree of objectivity, no free elections, as Putin decides who can and cannot run a campaign.
Now I have to weep for the word ‘trappings’ which seems to have lost its nuance. Bill! Of all people, I expected better of you. Et tu, Wilelme?
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Date Oct. 26 2022 0:30:31
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3415
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow ... (in reply to Brendan)
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quote:
Now I have to weep for the word ‘trappings’ which seems to have lost its nuance. Bill! Of all people, I expected better of you. Et tu, Wilelme?
I used the term "trappings" to counter pgh_flamenco's positive use of the term in describing Russia as a democratic state. It is a perfectly legitimate term to use, as both pgh_flamenco and I used it, pgh_flamenco positively and I negatively.
Putin has shredded any semblance of constitutional government in Russia, and the various elements such as the courts, rule-of-law, civic engagement, etc., have been reduced to nodes for the exercise of his power. He does not pretend to adhere to these so-called "trappings" of democratic government, and as a result, in my opinion, the phrase "trappings of a democratic state" loses all meaning. When the "trappings of a democratic state" are so transparently violated, the term no longer applies in any meaningful sense.
Just my take on the term, but there you have it.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 26 2022 2:30:09
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Estevan
Posts: 1912
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía
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RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow ... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
One man, Putin, controls the system, and he does so overtly, not covertly. There is no rule-of-law, no court system to which someone can appeal a case with any degree of objectivity, no free elections, as Putin decides who can and cannot run a campaign.
Putin was originally elected under the Russian constitution, but he has ensured his win in all subsequent elections through intimidation, plus he has convinced the Russian population that the West is the enemy and only he can save Russian honor, dignity, and a restoration of Russian greatness.
Precisely.
For anyone who may be interested in some serious insight into Putin's ideas and motivation, I recommend this article:
Ivan Ilyin, Putin’s Philosopher of Russian Fascism
Ivan Ilyin provided a metaphysical and moral justification for political totalitarianism, which he expressed in practical outlines for a fascist state. Today, his ideas have been revived and celebrated by Vladimir Putin.
https://www.nybooks.com/online/2018/03/16/ivan-ilyin-putins-philosopher-of-russian-fascism/
_____________________________
Me da igual. La música es música.
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Date Oct. 26 2022 3:11:30
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3415
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow ... (in reply to mrstwinkle)
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quote:
Standard US foreign policy stuff. Paint another country's leader as an existential threat. Provike (sic) situations which require military intervention. Get dragged into longrunning wars with no clear objective. Hundreds of thousands die. Attempt to semi withdraw years later having made situation worse.
I wonder if mrstwinkle sees the irony in the post quoted above? The actions ascribed to US foreign policy "stuff" is, ironically, an apt description of Putin's role in invading Ukraine. Putin provokes the situation by first seizing Crimea and portions of the Donbas in eastern Ukraine. He further provokes the situation by calling Zelensky and Ukraine a "Nazi threat."
Having manufactured the Ukrainian threat to Russian interests, he launches a full-scale military intervention and has gotten himself dragged into what appears to be a long-running war with his "objectives" changing as he fails to meet them. Hundreds have already died, and thousands will have died before it ends with a Russian attempt to withdraw, having made the situation worse.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 26 2022 14:09:31
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estebanana
Posts: 9016
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow ... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
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Speaking of cabbages, Putin’s ginned up accusations of Ukrainians as Nazi would be high comedy if it didn’t cause the evacuation of millions of Ukrainians from their homes and relegate millions more to living in their basements under their apt buildings because the cities are being destroyed.
It’s horrific, Putin claims to be liberating a country, but since the Ukrainians put up such a fight he can’t bend them. Instead his plan has turned to a scorched earth policy. Putin “Ukraine is part of old Russian empire, if they don’t reconnect to the mother, I will destroy the wayward child.”
Putin is a ****. C&nt.
Modern Russians in the metro areas probably are against him, but will not a mass showing oh disapproval because he still wields the power to suppress protests.
Added that Zelensky is Jewish the Nazi accusation is preposterous, but what’s so maddening is the the anti semitism in the conservative ( extreme right ) media markets in the US are complicit with Putin and his anti semitism. The anti semitic commentary coming off the Republican Party is appalling and dangerous. They are at this point fully open about it, posting anti semitic tropes and dog whistles on their official social media accounts.
The American far right isn’t a small insignificant faction in the Republican Party now, but a main influencer taking its power in the party from support by the base of the GOP, the rural electorate- they’ve been convinced that the evil costal elites are out to get them.
And in other news, the Tories are in thinly veiled disarray as the American republicans. Each group is struggling to work within its own usual philosophies and basic traditional ideas because there is infighting between more staunch factions that want to regress into a far right position. The moderates or people who would cooperate to to actually govern in the US are all but purged from the GOP replaced by destructionists who just want to burn the government down. They don’t aim to govern any longer, they just want raw power to a few very cynical ends.
To me the people who are most baffling are the ones who think this is entertaining and that elections don’t have consequences. The ones that think ‘both parties are the same’ or ‘don’t worry bro, we’ll get through it’ - I’m telling you what, at a certain point, we will not get through it.
—-
Final note on Putin - Yanukovich is Putin’s lap dog, as the Chekhov short story is titled ‘Lady with Lapdog’ - Yanucovich was ousted by a vote in the Ukraine parliament, not the victim of a US smear campaign. He was a Putin stand up the same as the Belarus president, the one who sent up a fighter jet to force an airliner to land after it passed through Belarus air space so they could extract a journalist and torture him.
That’s what Putin wants from Ukraine, a pack of loyalists who will suck little dick. Ukraine is going to castrate that son of a bitch.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Oct. 26 2022 18:30:42
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3415
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow ... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
And in other news, the Tories are in thinly veiled disarray as the American Republicans.
Stephen,
It is with great pleasure that I note your use of the term "thinly-veiled" after several years of lying dormant among the detritus of old, long-forgotten posts and comments. You, Richard Jernigan, I, and others made much use of the term when writing of everything from guitars to upscale hotels in Madrid. My own contribution in 2014, vaguely remembered but resurrected, follows.
"Some months ago I had planned to go to Madrid and stay at the Emperador. I specifically requested the Jernigan Suite, but upon making my request telephonically was told by management (in a rather haughty tone of voice, I might add) that any request for the Jernigan Suite, "requires the personal approval of Mr. Richard Jernigan, Esq." It was clear that I was viewed as someone of dubious pedigree, and that this was a thinly-veiled attempt to put me off."
While sifting through various posts and comments at the time, I noted several uses of the term by both you and Mr. Jernigan. Brought back memories. Glad to see it in use again.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Oct. 26 2022 20:28:24
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