RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Full Version)

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Pgh_flamenco -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 4:48:39)

quote:

...particularly when one looks at Putin's government in Russia, which really is a Fascist operation ruled by one man.


I have to disagree with this statement. Putin is a gangster running an ostensibly democratic nation. His regime doesn’t include any of the trappings of a fascist government.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 4:59:12)

quote:

Russias a great place, it’s just got bad management.


This is an extremely naive statement on your part. Are you aware of the rate of alcoholism among Russian men?



estebanana -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 6:05:57)

Hey I’m just here to celebrate a new cabbage PM

If you want me to be negative and call Russia a ****hole country I’m not going to do it. Russia has an incredible world influencing music culture. Alcoholism is a disease that if the country had better people at the top the social safety net could do more to educate and help those afflicted. Russia has tremendous potential, but some tyrant at the top holds the people back.

And I’m not going to get in a fight with you because you’re anonymous profile who just retreats anonymously when you lose an argument. Calling me naïve is also really funny, it hilarious 😆



estebanana -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 6:10:01)

quote:


...particularly when one looks at Putin's government in Russia, which really is a Fascist operation ruled by one man.


I have to disagree with this statement. Putin is a gangster running an ostensibly democratic nation. His regime doesn’t include any of the trappings of a fascist government.


You might want to double check what the tenets of fascist government entails. Putin’s repression of free journalism, plus the number of journalists who’ve fallen out of 12th floor windows is a fascist tenet.

Russia isn’t democratic at all.

Another fascist tenet is how Putin handles opposition to his government; by poisoning, arresting or assassination of any viable opposition candidate who could beat him in a transparent election. Putin knows good and well Navalny would whip his ass in a real election, so he tried to kill him twice, but the man is a bicho. Navalny could be a great reformer to Russia, he not dead yet.

I could go on with ten more tenets of fascist bullet points, but the most recent was making any protest of the war in Ukraine illegal. More repression, and the forced and sudden conscription of potential grunts was an authentic fascist movida.

There’s also the matter of the American basketball player held in detention on charges of having cannibus oil extract, when a month before she was detained other tourists stopped for the same offense ( trivial) were released in a few weeks. Putin is keeping the basketball player as war collateral to be used in trade deal down the line. Also deplorable and authoritarian BS.

Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race ...



estebanana -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 7:21:35)

So anyway back to cabbage and the cole slaw party.



estebanana -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 8:29:40)

Michael McFaul is a Russia specialist and former US ambassador to Russia. Not Putin’s favorite guy okay, but McFaul is an outright scholar on the political history of Russia.

The Russian constitution was passed in 1991, it structures the Russian government into a constitutional democracy in theory, but in reality Russia has lapsed into an autocratic situation with at least for the moment soft fascist edges. It’s a democratic federation on paper, but given what Putin does it’s a stretch to call it Democratic in practice.

https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/russias-road-to-autocracy/



BarkellWH -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 13:49:53)

quote:

I have to disagree with this statement. Putin is a gangster running an ostensibly democratic nation. His regime doesn’t include any of the trappings of a fascist government.


I think you are wrong on both of your points above. Putin is no more a "gangster" than was Stalin when he ruled the old Soviet Union. The USSR at that time had an "ostensibly democratic" constitution as well. The old Soviet constitution was just window dressing, as is the current Russian constitution, useful for providing cover for the dictator. Putin is a dictator who, at least until he overplayed his hand by invading Ukraine, was supported by 80 percent of the Russian population.

And to say that Putin's regime doesn't include any of the trappings of a fascist government is to demonstrate a lack of understanding of fascism. A pretty succinct definition of fascism is a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. Additionally, fascism usually looks back to a "golden age" in the history of the nation that it attempts to re-create. And it has always exalted militarism.

All of the above describe Putin's regime in spades. Putin is attempting to reassemble, at least in part, the old Soviet Russia by invading both Georgia (2008), Crimea (2014) and Ukraine (2020). Were it not for their membership in NATO, Putin would certainly have invaded the Baltic states and reincorporated them into his vision of a "Greater Russia." He refers to the breakup of the Soviet Union as "the greatest catastrophe in history." He imprisons or kills any opposition to him or his political and economic programs. He runs a centralized government every bit as autocratic as was that of Hitler and Mussolini.

To call Putin a "gangster" is to misread just how dangerous he is in the position of Russian president. He is far more than just a "gangster." He has a vision of Russia that he clearly believes in, and in attempting to realize that vision he resorts to all the tools traditionally held by fascist governments. That he has enriched himself and his closest cronies does not alter that assessment.

Bill



Escribano -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 14:31:36)

I worked in Moscow in the mid-90s. I had breakfast where Lenin announced revolutionary victory and loved my time there.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 14:40:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Hey I’m just here to celebrate a new cabbage PM

If you want me to be negative and call Russia a ****hole country I’m not going to do it. Russia has an incredible world influencing music culture. Alcoholism is a disease that if the country had better people at the top the social safety net could do more to educate and help those afflicted. Russia has tremendous potential, but some tyrant at the top holds the people back.

And I’m not going to get in a fight with you because you’re anonymous profile who just retreats anonymously when you lose an argument. Calling me naïve is also really funny, it hilarious 😆


Alcoholism is a longstanding problem in Russia. During Peter the Great’s reign European dignitaries reported that members of the Russian court would drink liquor until they passed out. This was every night. Current estimates of the rate of alcoholism among Russian men range between 37% and 48%. This is a cultural, and perhaps even a genetic, issue at this point that will not be resolved easily. A social safety net would help, but creating this sort of thing for such a large proportion of the population is unrealistic.

I didn’t just call you naive. I said you were, “EXTREMELY naive”. Get it right!



estebanana -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 14:47:05)

Bill,

Do you ever feel like you should get paid for teaching poly sci on the Foro? Perhaps we should co teach a seminar in Eastern European history and how to identify disinformation. But maybe not lest we be framed as two lonely actors on a dark dimly lit stage. 😂



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 15:31:33)

quote:



A pretty succinct definition of fascism is a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition. Additionally, fascism usually looks back to a "golden age" in the history of the nation that it attempts to re-create. And it has always exalted militarism.



Russia has tried to be a democratic state since the early 1990s and it has all of the trappings of a democratic state. Fascists create social and governmental institutions to promote their ideology and agenda. There’s often a cult of personality that promotes the image of a dictator and his henchmen. The majority of the efforts of fascists are public and notorious. In contrast, gangsters control existing institutions - often in democratic countries - by controlling the people who run them through threats of violence and targeted murders. Most of what they do is covert and in general these organizations form a shadow government that operates secretly.

I don’t think Putin cares what people think about most issues, nor what they do with their time or resources, as long as they are not actively working against him. Also, Putin has benefited financially from the Russian democracy and this is directly related to letting the Russian people follow their own interests for the most part. There just aren’t enough parallels with fascism to call him a fascist or his regime fascist.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 15:54:25)

quote:


There’s also the matter of the American basketball player held in detention on charges of having cannibus oil extract, when a month before she was detained other tourists stopped for the same offense ( trivial) were released in a few weeks. Putin is keeping the basketball player as war collateral to be used in trade deal down the line. Also deplorable and authoritarian BS.


Like it or not countries can create their own laws and enforce them - even if those laws run counter to your preferences. The basketball player admitted to being in possession of an illegal substance. This situation is her fault. Do you recall the chapter “Free John Sinclair” from the book “Woodstock Nation”? He was sentenced to 10 years in jail in Texas for a small amount of marijuana. The laws weren’t that different from Russia’s in some regions of the USA decades ago. A local teacher is in a labor camp in Russia for a similar offense. I have sympathy for both of them and hope they return to the US soon. Also, the fact that some people who are arrested are prosecuted for an offense in Russia while others are not is not surprising. The same thing happens in the US on a daily basis.



BarkellWH -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 16:48:34)

quote:

Russia has tried to be a democratic state since the early 1990s and it has all of the trappings of a democratic state.


Russia has none of the trappings of a democratic state. There was a very brief period under Yeltsin when it had a free election, but there were not, and there still are not, embedded institutions required for a democratic state to survive. One man, Putin, controls the system, and he does so overtly, not covertly. There is no rule-of-law, no court system to which someone can appeal a case with any degree of objectivity, no free elections, as Putin decides who can and cannot run a campaign.

Putin was originally elected under the Russian constitution, but he has ensured his win in all subsequent elections through intimidation, plus he has convinced the Russian population that the West is the enemy and only he can save Russian honor, dignity, and a restoration of Russian greatness. You might recall that Hitler also came to power in accordance with the German constitution at the time. He was appointed Chancellor by President Hindenburg, because Hindenburg and others thought they could control Hitler. Democratic indeed.

No, I'm afraid you misread both Putin and Russia entirely. Putin is using all the tools that have been used by previous fascists to overtly (again, overtly, not covertly) get his way with what he thinks is a veneer of legitimacy. I repeat a paragraph from my post upthread.

Putin is attempting to reassemble, at least in part, the old Soviet Russia by invading both Georgia (2008), Crimea (2014) and Ukraine (2020). Were it not for their membership in NATO, Putin would certainly have invaded the Baltic states and reincorporated them into his vision of a "Greater Russia." He refers to the breakup of the Soviet Union as "the greatest catastrophe in history." He imprisons or kills any opposition to him or his political and economic programs. He runs a centralized government every bit as autocratic as was that of Hitler and Mussolini.

That paragraph not only describes Putin's regime, it has all the hallmarks of fascism inherent in my definition which you have quoted in your post above.

Bill



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 17:22:14)

quote:

One man, Putin, controls the system, and he does so overtly, not covertly.


Russian institutions were setup under the guidelines of a federal constitution which is still in effect today. Putin strong arms the leaders of these institutions as well as business leaders. The secret police don’t arrest them and put them in camps for political prisoners. He hasn’t replaced these federal institutions with his own. When people fall to their deaths from their hospital bedrooms is this an overt or covert way of dealing with the opposition?

I respect your opinion, and your service as a government employee, but we’ll have to agree to disagree on this.



BarkellWH -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 17:54:24)

quote:

Russian institutions were setup under the guidelines of a federal constitution which is still in effect today. Putin strong arms the leaders of these institutions as well as business leaders. The secret police don’t arrest them and put them in camps for political prisoners.


Again, that Russian institutions were set up under the guidelines of a federal constitution still in effect today is not in question. The point is Putin does not need to scrap the constitution. Like Stalin under the old Soviet constitution, Putin uses the Russian constitution to lend a veneer of "legitimacy" to his actions. He doesn't have to "strong-arm" the leaders of these institutions because he appoints loyalists to those positions. And the secret police don't arrest political dissidents and put them into camps because the dissidents are charged with criminal activity under the court system overseen by Putin's minions, another Putin sop to "legitimacy."

Nevertheless, I always enjoy a good discussion and agree with you that we have said all there is to say on both sides, and that it is best that we agree to (agreeably!) disagree.

Bill



mrstwinkle -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 25 2022 19:06:07)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_on_Fire



Brendan -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 0:30:31)

quote:



Russia has none of the trappings of a democratic state. There was a very brief period under Yeltsin when it had a free election, but there were not, and there still are not, embedded institutions required for a democratic state to survive. One man, Putin, controls the system, and he does so overtly, not covertly. There is no rule-of-law, no court system to which someone can appeal a case with any degree of objectivity, no free elections, as Putin decides who can and cannot run a campaign.



Now I have to weep for the word ‘trappings’ which seems to have lost its nuance. Bill! Of all people, I expected better of you. Et tu, Wilelme?



BarkellWH -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 2:30:09)

quote:

Now I have to weep for the word ‘trappings’ which seems to have lost its nuance. Bill! Of all people, I expected better of you. Et tu, Wilelme?


I used the term "trappings" to counter pgh_flamenco's positive use of the term in describing Russia as a democratic state. It is a perfectly legitimate term to use, as both pgh_flamenco and I used it, pgh_flamenco positively and I negatively.

Putin has shredded any semblance of constitutional government in Russia, and the various elements such as the courts, rule-of-law, civic engagement, etc., have been reduced to nodes for the exercise of his power. He does not pretend to adhere to these so-called "trappings" of democratic government, and as a result, in my opinion, the phrase "trappings of a democratic state" loses all meaning. When the "trappings of a democratic state" are so transparently violated, the term no longer applies in any meaningful sense.

Just my take on the term, but there you have it.

Bill



Estevan -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 3:11:30)

quote:

One man, Putin, controls the system, and he does so overtly, not covertly. There is no rule-of-law, no court system to which someone can appeal a case with any degree of objectivity, no free elections, as Putin decides who can and cannot run a campaign.

Putin was originally elected under the Russian constitution, but he has ensured his win in all subsequent elections through intimidation, plus he has convinced the Russian population that the West is the enemy and only he can save Russian honor, dignity, and a restoration of Russian greatness.


Precisely.

For anyone who may be interested in some serious insight into Putin's ideas and motivation, I recommend this article:

Ivan Ilyin, Putin’s Philosopher of Russian Fascism

Ivan Ilyin provided a metaphysical and moral justification for political totalitarianism, which he expressed in practical outlines for a fascist state. Today, his ideas have been revived and celebrated by Vladimir Putin.

https://www.nybooks.com/online/2018/03/16/ivan-ilyin-putins-philosopher-of-russian-fascism/



Brendan -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 9:10:13)

Thanks Esteven, that’s an excellent read. Unlike gangsters, fascists need intellectuals to write an ideology for them.

One difference between fascists then and now that may turn out to be important is that classical fascists were keen on restoring national virtue through the cleansing fire of war. They required their followers to join up and fight. Contemporary fascists don’t—they offer a spectacle of military strength for their followers to enjoy. They offer a restoration of national greatness at no personal cost. This was Putin’s deal with Russia, which he has had to break. You can see some of his cheerleaders pivoting to cleansing fire rhetoric since the mobilisation. Others worry about breaking the ‘social contract’.



mrstwinkle -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 9:18:37)

Standard US foreign policy stuff. Paint another country's leader as an existential threat. Provike situations which require military intervention. Get dragged into longrunning wars with no clear objective. Hundreds of thousands die. Attempt to semi withdraw years later having made situation worse.

Rinse. Repeat.



estebanana -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 11:43:00)

Soooo the screen writers, poets and novelists that expound upon the romantic violence and land pirate qualities of gansters are chopped liver? Oh my god. 😂

There is a Japanese Meiji jidai ( era) philosopher ( name escapes me at the moment) who justified Japanese imperialism and quest for empire in the 1880’s. It turns out he’s popular today with Chinese Nationalist thinkers as a foundation for justification of Chinese expansion globally. It’s ironic because the Meiji philosopher was influential in Japan occupation of Korea and China, which of course the current nationalist in those countries constantly bring up as unfinished business.

The part of the Meiji era when the government pushed hard on the propaganda that the emperor was again a living god, that’s seldom recounted is that Japan at the time had an opposition intelligencia that wrote counter to the Meiji government propaganda. They were branded unpatriotic and shameless.



BarkellWH -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 14:09:31)

quote:

Standard US foreign policy stuff. Paint another country's leader as an existential threat. Provike (sic) situations which require military intervention. Get dragged into longrunning wars with no clear objective. Hundreds of thousands die. Attempt to semi withdraw years later having made situation worse.


I wonder if mrstwinkle sees the irony in the post quoted above? The actions ascribed to US foreign policy "stuff" is, ironically, an apt description of Putin's role in invading Ukraine. Putin provokes the situation by first seizing Crimea and portions of the Donbas in eastern Ukraine. He further provokes the situation by calling Zelensky and Ukraine a "Nazi threat."

Having manufactured the Ukrainian threat to Russian interests, he launches a full-scale military intervention and has gotten himself dragged into what appears to be a long-running war with his "objectives" changing as he fails to meet them. Hundreds have already died, and thousands will have died before it ends with a Russian attempt to withdraw, having made the situation worse.

Bill



BarkellWH -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 14:16:37)

Estevan, I would like to echo Brendan's appreciation for posting the link to the article, "Ivan Ilyin, Putin’s Philosopher of Russian Fascism." Very good and insightful.

Bill



mrstwinkle -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 17:15:55)

Or Aleksandr Dugin



estebanana -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 18:30:42)

Speaking of cabbages, Putin’s ginned up accusations of Ukrainians as Nazi would be high comedy if it didn’t cause the evacuation of millions of Ukrainians from their homes and relegate millions more to living in their basements under their apt buildings because the cities are being destroyed.

It’s horrific, Putin claims to be liberating a country, but since the Ukrainians put up such a fight he can’t bend them. Instead his plan has turned to a scorched earth policy. Putin “Ukraine is part of old Russian empire, if they don’t reconnect to the mother, I will destroy the wayward child.”
Putin is a ****. C&nt.

Modern Russians in the metro areas probably are against him, but will not a mass showing oh disapproval because he still wields the power to suppress protests.

Added that Zelensky is Jewish the Nazi accusation is preposterous, but what’s so maddening is the the anti semitism in the conservative ( extreme right ) media markets in the US are complicit with Putin and his anti semitism. The anti semitic commentary coming off the Republican Party is appalling and dangerous. They are at this point fully open about it, posting anti semitic tropes and dog whistles on their official social media accounts.

The American far right isn’t a small insignificant faction in the Republican Party now, but a main influencer taking its power in the party from support by the base of the GOP, the rural electorate- they’ve been convinced that the evil costal elites are out to get them.

And in other news, the Tories are in thinly veiled disarray as the American republicans. Each group is struggling to work within its own usual philosophies and basic traditional ideas because there is infighting between more staunch factions that want to regress into a far right position. The moderates or people who would cooperate to to actually govern in the US are all but purged from the GOP replaced by destructionists who just want to burn the government down. They don’t aim to govern any longer, they just want raw power to a few very cynical ends.

To me the people who are most baffling are the ones who think this is entertaining and that elections don’t have consequences. The ones that think ‘both parties are the same’ or ‘don’t worry bro, we’ll get through it’ - I’m telling you what, at a certain point, we will not get through it.

—-

Final note on Putin - Yanukovich is Putin’s lap dog, as the Chekhov short story is titled ‘Lady with Lapdog’ - Yanucovich was ousted by a vote in the Ukraine parliament, not the victim of a US smear campaign. He was a Putin stand up the same as the Belarus president, the one who sent up a fighter jet to force an airliner to land after it passed through Belarus air space so they could extract a journalist and torture him.

That’s what Putin wants from Ukraine, a pack of loyalists who will suck little dick. Ukraine is going to castrate that son of a bitch.



BarkellWH -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 20:28:24)

quote:

And in other news, the Tories are in thinly veiled disarray as the American Republicans.


Stephen,

It is with great pleasure that I note your use of the term "thinly-veiled" after several years of lying dormant among the detritus of old, long-forgotten posts and comments. You, Richard Jernigan, I, and others made much use of the term when writing of everything from guitars to upscale hotels in Madrid. My own contribution in 2014, vaguely remembered but resurrected, follows.

"Some months ago I had planned to go to Madrid and stay at the Emperador. I specifically requested the Jernigan Suite, but upon making my request telephonically was told by management (in a rather haughty tone of voice, I might add) that any request for the Jernigan Suite, "requires the personal approval of Mr. Richard Jernigan, Esq." It was clear that I was viewed as someone of dubious pedigree, and that this was a thinly-veiled attempt to put me off."

While sifting through various posts and comments at the time, I noted several uses of the term by both you and Mr. Jernigan. Brought back memories. Glad to see it in use again.


Bill



estebanana -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 20:45:25)

Bill,

Excellent point, and let’s not forget those young ladies to whom Jernigan so magnanimously loaned his suite.



Estevan -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 21:33:45)

quote:

... and let’s not forget those young ladies to whom Jernigan so magnanimously loaned his suite.


- also thinly-veiled, I fancy...



estebanana -> RE: I Demand A New Cabbage ( Anglow Warning) (Oct. 26 2022 23:27:47)

Sheer guesswork…



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